Explanation for the rise in populism

Yes, and TRIP suggested that Nixon facilitated the rise of the elite class and money markets. Traditional manufacturing moved to China, Reagan and Thatcher,, supported the growth with the embracement of neo-liberalism. Whole swathes of the USA and U.K. were laid to waste and have never ever really recovered.

These are the areas that has the highest support of the populist politicians, like Trump and Farage.

I think you also have to factor in the growth of technology and in particular the media into the mix.

We once had an educated working class in the UK- partly due to the Unions but also the grammar school system. This meant they could read with discretion and criticism and didn't just gobble up any old rubbish in the right wing broadsheets.

Thatcher supported the end of the old newspaper industry with the demise of Fleet Street and the technology that made the old printing industry collapse under the competition, especially from the tabloid press who could make news quickly, cheaply and with hardly any of the previous regulation.
We saw the culmination with the collapse of Murdoch's News of the World but also the unremiting rise particularly of social media.
Social media gave permission for anyone with something to say to influence the thinking of others without any scrutiny, in fact it encouraged fake news in order to make political gains.
We only need look at the example of Elon Musk here.

So once you factor the influence of the media you have the perfect storm for near societal collapse.

We are not quite there yet, but unless we invest in education and raising the expectations of young working class people we may soon well be.

^ ‘populism’ hasn’t had any effect on governments until the onset of universal suffrage.^

Though I will grant that the French and Russian revolutions were carried by populism.

Whitewavemark2

I’m not entirely convinced that the worlds economy and politics can be compared to a pendulum, I think that it is more complicated than that, and trade, power, climate change, war etc has to be taken into account.

Neither am I.

I think (of course) that populism is far more allied to economics than ‘cycles’. After all, Breudel‘s work might be persuasive, but as ‘the populace’ has had very little influence over government for hundreds of years, ‘populism’ hasn’t had any effect on governments until the onset of universal suffrage.

What is noticeable is that the rising tide of more widespread financial equality and the resulting relative prosperity of the old ‘working classes’ was swept away by Reagan and Thatcher embracing radically different economic theory and policies from those which had been in force after WW2. With many ‘Western’ countries following suit.

It was last weeks I think - I’ll have a look - 25 th November. Some stuff is for subscribers, but that one is ok.

I had a quick look WWM but don't think it's a very recent one...

I’m not entirely convinced that the worlds economy and politics can be compared to a pendulum, I think that it is more complicated than that, and trade, power, climate change, war etc has to be taken into account.

"Assuming that new jobs would come along" = they were on a hiding to nothing if they were waiting for that.

My type of job (and I) are not "working class". It was things like being a personal secretary - and it was very clear in the 1980s that those in power don't give a monkeys about providing new types of job when existing ones vanish (whether in America or in Britain). I spent some time looking round for what retraining (on full salary money for those of us already in the workforce of course) there was available for retraining for some other type of job. I could tell them - from my own experience - "If they don't care about people like me in jobs like mine and we're supposed to fend for ourselves as best we can as we see our jobs becoming outdated = don't think you'll be looked after either".

The powers-that-be think that you (personally) should just "take the hit" and be glad of anything you can get (even if it's clearly not "yours").

Yep....try and shove people down wholesale from "where they belong/what's rightfully theirs" and don't make any arrangements for what else they're supposed to do = just wait until they see a way to whack back (with the way they vote or whatever else).

spaghetti my iPad can’t do links -although actually it’s probably my technical incompetence.

I thought the Bretton Woods and post war explanation very interesting, and it certainly makes sense to me, particularly the decision by Nixon and subsequent fall out.

There is historical precedent of the working class voting for an extreme leader who promises the moon, so I think there is definitely a good argument to made about the working classes recent experience of the economy, unemployment and falling living standards, and their support of extreme political leaders.

I'd agree with Willow's post. Populism is one of the ills that have flown out of the Pandora's Box of Globalisation in its many guises. Importing and sometimes exploiting cheap foreign labour, out sourcing production. All that was bound to affect the existing home grown work forces wherever they may be, often leaving them feeling disgruntled and thoroughly trounced and disenfranchised.

My younger sister has lived in the US since the 70s. She’s very lefty by US standards, would have loved Bernie Sanders to win previously, has no time for the current Democrat lot, couldn’t stand Hillary Clinton.

Recently she did a massive road trip, all the way from Cape Cod (where she lives) to Tucson, Arizona, where her dd lives.

At one point she told me she’d driven for 12 hours solid, so of course I said why on earth hadn’t she stopped somewhere? There must have been plenty of motels!

Yes, but she’d been driving through great long swathes of Arkansas, which she said was so unbelievably bloody depressing. she couldn’t bring herself to stay even one night.

And she added, ‘No wonder they all vote for Trump! To be honest, I can’t blame them!’

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423#:~:text=Populism%20is%20a%20political%20idea%20that%20society,Movement**%20Italy%20*%20**League%20parties**%20Anti%2Dimmigrant%20parties

article on populism

The basic premises of the state we are in, in the West generally, by outsourcing jobs to countries where cheap labour was available - but UK companies would still make a profit - assuming that new sorts of jobs would come along: (but more jobs have not come along - is undeniable).

What we didnt bargain for was: that economies like India have not only taken jobs, but also our service industry (as in call centres): that economies:

especially but not only China would themselves start producing such cheap goods that our UK firms outsourcing manufacturing would also be at risk

and lastly, that the funding of many big businesses would become international, out of national control.

its hardly surprising that its left a lot of people without the kinds of both skilled and unskilled work that used to be available. they are very fed up indeed, have given up the hope that jobs will return. what do they turn to? Well, what I'd call magical thinking and those on the right delivering Blame rather than understanding to the population at large - but truth is western governments can't deliver those jobs again.

The generation growing up now expect so much more than we did, dont they? A car, holidays abroad, lots of new clothes, expensive pre-prepared food, flown in by exploiting ex colonies (think, food from Kenya and similar) or countries using immigrant labour. (the mediterranean countries)

...we were happy enough as children, most of us, with far, far, less, and I suspect we would need to be happy with a lot less again to make things work.

Trumps answer is to try and bring jobs back through tariffs, so that it becomes worthwhile to set up industries back in the USA very long term. I don't think we see many signs of this policy working. Because `I dont think the very rich or the fairly rich in the USA will be prepared to sacrifice their wealth and the US government is controlled by the very wealthy, indeed its painted as what all should aspire to.

Here's an interesting article on "populism" as in coming from the right and the left. Its from 2018, but I think very relevant today.

Like `I said, Magical Thinking

Oh, yes that comes into it as well, pendulums have to be powered by something, they do not have the secret of perpetual motion, but people always turn against the status quo sooner or later. Even when conditions are reasonable good you get these pendulum swings..

You should study the work of Ferdinand Breudel who divided historic time in to the event( the now), the conjuncture (the medium term and the Long duree, of deeper time when things are seen in perspective and how they fit in with the cyles of economic life, business cycles, and social cycles, triggered by events but playing out over the years

M0nica

Its the way the pendulum swings, first to the left and then to the right. Mrs Thatcher, Mr Blair, David Cameron and now back towards Reform.

This is the way life goes in almost everything, The pendulum swings, another young generation doesn't want to think like their parents, the pendulum swings, older people get scared so the pendulum starts to swing back.

Really, MOnica?

Just a swinging pendulum?

Nothing to do with what is happening in the country and how voters feel about it?

Or promises to solve all people's problems?

Oh well...

Not sure exactly what 'populism' is, so will go and look it up, and re-join the Thread later.

Its the way the pendulum swings, first to the left and then to the right. Mrs Thatcher, Mr Blair, David Cameron and now back towards Reform.

This is the way life goes in almost everything, The pendulum swings, another young generation doesn't want to think like their parents, the pendulum swings, older people get scared so the pendulum starts to swing back.

I heard that WWM too and thought it interesting.

Not sure why it's too simplistic as we "get the drift".

Maybe a link to the original would help...

It's just greed. And total absence of a sense of community. Thatcher had a lot to do with this in the UK. We are all the poorer for it.

I listened to a lot of programs coming from the US prior to the election.
It was obvious from the people being interviewed that Trump was going to win hands down.
That’s why I put a bet on Trump and got a good return.
You didn’t need an ology to see which way the wind was blowing.

*I forgot to add women to the list of those he despises! Withdrawing reproductive care, for example, and calling women vile names.

At base, it’s a competition for resources, I suppose. Trump seemed to offer a way for the less wealthy to get a bit of what the rich had but now he appears to think that some of the ‘poor’ are less deserving than other (Black people, immigrants, Muslim for eg) and many of the things he’s done are hurting the very people who voted for him.

Food prices have risen hugely, health care is getting less accessible and more costly, research into disease has had funding withdrawn, access to many vaccinations curtailed and funding for education has been reduced. My own theory on the last of those is that Trump wants an uneducated population because he thinks they’ll be more likely to vote for him.

The irony, of course, is that he is one of the elite he claims to despise, he’s never had to fight for resources and he so loves to schmooze with the rich and famous.

Well, yes...but.

Blimey!

Yes, you are quite right.

Very simplistic.