The next doctors’ strike

I just asked that specific question in relation to GP trainees to AI GrannyGravy13

‘In 2023, 52% of GP training places in the UK were filled by non-UK graduates, also referred to as International Medical Graduates (IMGs). This figure has been rising significantly in recent years.
The proportion of non-UK graduates in GP specialty training has increased substantially, growing by 15 percentage points from 41% in 2019 to 56% in 2023. This is almost double the average proportion of non-UK graduates across all other medical specialties, which stood at 27% in 2023.
This high proportion of overseas doctors in training highlights the UK's reliance on international recruitment to address its GP workforce shortages. ‘

I think that must be why there is a disparity between my daughter’s friend’s experience and the training place application stats.

GrannyGravy13

foxie48

"In 2022 there were 8,549 applications for 4,137 available posts but there was a 39.6% on-year increase in applications from 2024 (15,036 places) compared to just 4.4% more available training posts." This is for GP training places.

How many of those applications were from non UK trained doctors?

I heard on the radio yesterday (Jeremy Vine) that approximately 1/4 - 1/3 of all applicants were from overseas doctors.

We really should prioritise UK trained doctors over and above all others.

Exactly this

foxie48

"In 2022 there were 8,549 applications for 4,137 available posts but there was a 39.6% on-year increase in applications from 2024 (15,036 places) compared to just 4.4% more available training posts." This is for GP training places.

How many of those applications were from non UK trained doctors?

I heard on the radio yesterday (Jeremy Vine) that approximately 1/4 - 1/3 of all applicants were from overseas doctors.

We really should prioritise UK trained doctors over and above all others.

People will die because of this. They should remember it could be them or their relatives if they get seriously ill with flu. There's no private A&E so regardless of money that's where they will go

"In 2022 there were 8,549 applications for 4,137 available posts but there was a 39.6% on-year increase in applications from 2024 (15,036 places) compared to just 4.4% more available training posts." This is for GP training places.

Casdon

I can only tell you her experience foxie48, she applied in 2022, and started the scheme in 2023. She is in Wales. She did say that a lot of applications were not classed as up to scratch by the assessors.

tbh I don't understand that as the selection is done on a points basis and minimum entry requirements for each specialism is quite clear, candidates may not have enough points to gain a training place but that doesn't mean they wouldn't make very competent GPS. The selection process is national not specific to a particular country, so candidates who want to stay in Wales can opt for Welsh based training posts but if they don't get the points they need they may be offered a post somewhere else which has been less popular. It's all a bit of a lottery tbh as candidates can see which areas were less popular in the past and deliberately apply for those but if enough candida,tes do that, they effectively make it more popular (IYSWIM). In 2022 there were 8,549 applications for 4,137 available posts but there was a 39.6% on-year increase in applications from 2024 (15,036 places) compared to just 4.4% more available training posts.

Just a thought, I haven’t discussed this with my daughter’s friend, but it might be that there are a lot of overseas applications for GP practice training schemes who don’t survive the screening process?

I can only tell you her experience foxie48, she applied in 2022, and started the scheme in 2023. She is in Wales. She did say that a lot of applications were not classed as up to scratch by the assessors.

"Competition for GP specialty training posts has reached a record high, with five doctors vying for every available place in England.

Newly-released NHS England statistics show there were 20,995 applications for 4,276 general practice ST1 training posts in the first recruitment round for 2025 – a competition ratio of 4.91.

This represents a 39.6% on-year increase in applications from 2024 (15,036 places) compared to just 4.4% more available training posts (4,096 in 2024).

It is the largest mismatch between the number of applicants and places recorded by NHS England (going back to 2013)."

Taken from Pulse 22 September 2025 link to full article below.
www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/record-competition-for-gp-training-posts-leaves-four-in-five-applicants-rejected/

Mamie

Aveline

I wonder if there has been a reduction in applications to study medicine as it's apparently so badly paid and with such poor career progression? Somehow I doubt it.

I don't think there has Aveline, just a huge increase in thise leaving the country to find jobs after qualifying.
My granddaughter is in her second year and hopes things will have improved by the time she qualifies.
She knows of one group of six house-sharers where five went to Australia and one joined the army.

It has happened before, I remember a great exodus of newly qualified doctors in the early 2000s because there were no specialty training places for them.

It is so short-sighted.

...those

Aveline

I wonder if there has been a reduction in applications to study medicine as it's apparently so badly paid and with such poor career progression? Somehow I doubt it.

I don't think there has Aveline, just a huge increase in thise leaving the country to find jobs after qualifying.
My granddaughter is in her second year and hopes things will have improved by the time she qualifies.
She knows of one group of six house-sharers where five went to Australia and one joined the army.

I am just wondering how countries like Belarus have any medics at all - hourly rate at six dollars. Uk equivalent at 79 dollars per hour (who compiles these statistics?). Generally though do the medics at the bottom of the pay scale do a better or worse job for their patients?

I wonder if there has been a reduction in applications to study medicine as it's apparently so badly paid and with such poor career progression? Somehow I doubt it.

foxie48

I think you are very out of dateCasdon The process for selecting trainees i based on a points system, with points being given for a range of things on a candidate's portfolio. This includes whether the candidate has a first class degree, masters or PhD as well as a medical degree. Certain external research and/ or presenting at national conference level, teaching experience, etc Interviews are conducted by Zoom and points awarded which get added to the portfolio. A computer churns out the points against the applications and allocates training places. It's completely computerised. Medics spend their own time undertaking research etc in order to improve their points which is another stress on Resident doctors as well as studying for exams which are essential for moving through the training pathway. The only personal interaction is via the zoom interview which will be with people who the candidate will never had met. During my daughter's last interview her internet went down! It's an incredibly stressful process!

Well, my daughter’s friend is on her second year foxie2, so I don’t think she would be telling us untruths about the GP training scheme, it’s not a self aggrandising thing to say there were not other applicants above the line? They speak from their own experience, I’ve got a family member resident doctor too, and he took a year working as a locum until he got a training place in his specialty of choice, I know not everybody is that lucky.

Just to add to my above post.

In 2024 there were 640 applications for 390 stage 2 (ST4 level) anaesthetics training places. These are resident doctors who have already had three years of anaesthetics specialist training on top of their foundation years and graduate course, passed their stage one exams, which in 2023 had a pass rate of 61% and who, unless they get a stage 2 training post cannot continue their training and are without a job. Those trainees who have failed to pass the exam (anaesthetics is known to be a particularly difficult exam so candidates often have more than one attempt) but have finished their stage 1 training post are in even more of a limbo. Is it any wonder that resident doctors get demoralised? Please give me another area of work where highly trained professionals are treated so shabbily and remeber if you are a doctor in training , you only have one employer ie the NHS!

I think you are very out of dateCasdon The process for selecting trainees i based on a points system, with points being given for a range of things on a candidate's portfolio. This includes whether the candidate has a first class degree, masters or PhD as well as a medical degree. Certain external research and/ or presenting at national conference level, teaching experience, etc Interviews are conducted by Zoom and points awarded which get added to the portfolio. A computer churns out the points against the applications and allocates training places. It's completely computerised. Medics spend their own time undertaking research etc in order to improve their points which is another stress on Resident doctors as well as studying for exams which are essential for moving through the training pathway. The only personal interaction is via the zoom interview which will be with people who the candidate will never had met. During my daughter's last interview her internet went down! It's an incredibly stressful process!

The other thing to consider about medical students is that they have already gone through an intensely competitive process to get there, A levels at A*, A, interviews and the very demanding UCAT test.
They would therefore be equipped to gain entry to degree courses and careers in other fields where pay rates are much higher.
Do people really want that?

There are some funny ideas on here about what firefighters do. They undergo regular training on all sorts of things which will keep you alive if there is a fire, chemical incident, bomb, landslide, flood, etc. They put themselves at risk in a way that most medical staff won't and still have to attend incidents even though their clients are infectious. They do not sit around drinking tea.
The difference between the medical profession and the fire service is that firefighters have a far better shift rotation and get good levels of down time. They also get free eye care and dental treatment. My husband who was a firefighter and worked on the admin side used to say that whoever negotiated their benefits must have worked very hard to get them such a good deal.

thesis what `I have found and been told, Casdon, by peopleowrking in MH, but looked it up to check it out

"Yes, getting doctors into psychiatry is challenging due to burnout, system issues, and negative perceptions from medical students, leading to both low applicant numbers in some areas (making it seem easy) and high competition in others, creating a cycle where understaffing and jaded doctors deter new talent, despite a genuine need for more psychiatrists.

The understaffing is beyond shocking in most Foundation Trusts in the three groups: Children (up to 16) Adult (16 to 65) and Older Adults (65+)

I know how tough it is, but sometimes the stats do belie the reality in the lower subscribed specialties though foxie48. I know a GP trainee, who was the only eligible applicant for her role. If there are an average of 3 or 4 applicants, for various reasons they don’t always appoint - and because it’s an average, some posts are over subscribed in the same specialty, and some aren’t, depending on location. I’m a bit out of touch with Psychiatry now, but that was certainly similar a couple of years ago.

DD is an anaesthetist which has the largest number of training places, there are 6.5 applicants for every vacancy, when DD started it was about 4.

worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/doctor-pay-by-country

usa & australia both lots more than the uk

* Casdon* every specialist area is over subscribed, look at the ratio of applcants to vacancy. I was discussing this yesterday with DD and there are no area that will guarantee the applicant a training post, even maxofaxillary is over subscribed and to apply for that you need both dental and medical degrees. Imagine training in both areas and still not getting on to the specialist training course.

Unfortunately there are some who are too militant now.