BMJ defends FGM

I’m opposed to male circumcision as well, other than for medical reasons

I find this early obsession with genitalia unsettling.

Thanks worriedwell

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8464584/

Anyone who thinks male circumcision isn't a big problem maybe read this link. Warning be careful of scrolling down as there are graphic photographs of the damage.

Anyone in favour of doing this to their perfect baby/grandson?

IOMGran

As in we all agree on the fact that FGM is an appalling mutilation of little girls who will suffer a lifetime of effects from it. Unlike male circumcision, which I personally don't see the need for either.

There can be medical reasons for male circumcision but that is the only time it should happen. Boys can also suffer lifetime issues like the accident when a boy had his whole penis removed. Maybe issues are usually less severe but does that mean we should take those risks on behalf of a baby?

I don't think it is helpful to have a hierarchy of which damaging procedures we allow on children.

For everyone who is against FGM, and for those who are concerned about how to keep girls safe from it, within their communities where this practice is the norm, have a look at how suttee was managed to be eradicated in India.
It can be done.

Iam64

My comments on this thread are in no way supportive of FGM. It’s abhorrent, illegal in the UK and I can’t find anything could justify the practice. IMO we need to work with the communities who are settled in the UK to try and influence against it.
Worriedwell, yes I’ve heard of Edna Ismail and other courageous women who live with the physical and emotional legacy of FGM. Commenting on the need to work with communities doesn’t mean I support FGM, or oppose prosecutions

She is amazing.

I didn't for a moment think you were in favour of FGM.

As in we all agree on the fact that FGM is an appalling mutilation of little girls who will suffer a lifetime of effects from it. Unlike male circumcision, which I personally don't see the need for either.

Nannee49

The one massive omission to all this narrative is consent.

Is there any process in this important cultural tradition - to some - that allows a female to agree to their clitoris being cut?

Or an eight day old baby boy. No child should have bits of their body removed for cultural or religious reasons. It is barbaric.

Maremia

Well, the premise of the post is that the BMJ has published an article defending FGM.
Now, either it has, or it has not.
As you say, probs not everyone has actually read the printed words.

However, this being a GN Thread, the focus seems to have morphed into a discussion around the actual 'practice', with which I get the impression, most of us disagree.
And now other issues of cultural 'practices' have been raised.
The OP is busy elsewhere and has not been back to comment and/or amend the Thread head.
For me, there has been some new information about FGM.

Actually it's something we all agree on, amazingly. The issue is was the BMJ defending FGM and the answer is thy weren't. The Post title is misleading and is informed by Daily Mail, unsurprisingly.

My comments on this thread are in no way supportive of FGM. It’s abhorrent, illegal in the UK and I can’t find anything could justify the practice. IMO we need to work with the communities who are settled in the UK to try and influence against it.
Worriedwell, yes I’ve heard of Edna Ismail and other courageous women who live with the physical and emotional legacy of FGM. Commenting on the need to work with communities doesn’t mean I support FGM, or oppose prosecutions

The one massive omission to all this narrative is consent.

Is there any process in this important cultural tradition - to some - that allows a female to agree to their clitoris being cut?

CariadAgain

That had me just doing a quick google re anaesthetic or otherwise for boy babies.

Bear in mind I was asking about a specific country and the answer was "Probably not - about 70 odd years ago when it was a very poor country. But it then changed to "Now it's changed from a poor country to a very very rich country indeed = yep anaesthesia is now very much the norm". Probably the same applies to the other countries concerned. So - very unlikely to be a male problem any longer these days - as no pain. So simply not an issue for men basically - though it is very much an issue for women still.

Check orthodox Judaism where anaesthesia is less likely to be used.

Iam64

It’s increasingly difficult to discuss ‘difficult issues ‘ on gransnet because complex issues seem inevitably to result in the demand for simple answers
Like FGM is bad, arrest any mother who doesn’t run away with her daughter to prevent the barbaric practice. Never mind that mum doesn’t want her or her daughter to step away from all they know.
Who will feed them keep them safe?

Have you ever heard Edna Adan Ismail? An amazing woman, British trained midwife who became the wife of the president of Somalia, it maybe Somaliland. Her father was a doctor, he would not have FGM for his Edna. When he was away from home his wife and her mother had the FGM done. She said her father cried when he found out what they'd done.

I will never forget listening to that courageous woman who trained and then went back to her country and opened a hospital for women and their babies. Babies she could never have because of what her mother and grandmother did.

These women believe they are doing the right thing for their daughter's however much we can't understand it. Education is the answer.

She campaigns for an end to FGM.

CariadAgain

Very true Cossy.

Personally I never ever once had a circumcised boyfriend that seemed to be any "different" in any way to me, traumatised, in pain, etc etc. It simply didn't seem to occur to any of them to have any negative feelings whatsoever about it - emotionally or physically. It was more a case of "shrug - so what?" that would have about summed it up it seemed and the thought never even seemed to cross their mind to think about it. So - as long as a baby is given anaesthetic as appropriate in the case of that at the time = I don't see any problem with it and it's better for their health and for their partners health. Better all round imo. As long as there is the use of anaesthetic (and I don't know whether they do use anaesthetic or no to do that) = I don't see it personally as to why anyone would be against it.

The female version is a very very different thing - even if they used anaesthetic for it = it's just plain wrong/ruins a womans body permanently/can't begin to think how bad it must be to have a "relationship", a pregnancy or whatever and it's unmitigated evil to do that to a girl.

I think the baby boy who lost his whole penis due to a medical accident would have a different view if he was alive.

Rosie51

I know of two little boys who were circumcised (at different times) for medical reasons at ages 4 and 7. I'd hate for them to be regarded as 'mutilated'. Medical circumcision is quite separate and different to girls undergoing FGM that is done to prevent 'immorality' and to deny women sexual pleasure.

Why do labioplasty then? It still happens here, I know someone whose genitals werent considered "right" and as an adult she doesn't seem happy about the surgery that was done.

Circumcision of boys should also be banned unless medically justified. Why anyone would consent to it is beyond me. I have a Jewish friend who refused to let it be done to her son. All surgeries carry dangers, cutting off bits of baby boys is awful. There was an infamous American case where twin boys were circumcised and one completely lost his penis. Why take that risk? I believe he committed suicide.

That had me just doing a quick google re anaesthetic or otherwise for boy babies.

Bear in mind I was asking about a specific country and the answer was "Probably not - about 70 odd years ago when it was a very poor country. But it then changed to "Now it's changed from a poor country to a very very rich country indeed = yep anaesthesia is now very much the norm". Probably the same applies to the other countries concerned. So - very unlikely to be a male problem any longer these days - as no pain. So simply not an issue for men basically - though it is very much an issue for women still.

Very true Cossy.

Personally I never ever once had a circumcised boyfriend that seemed to be any "different" in any way to me, traumatised, in pain, etc etc. It simply didn't seem to occur to any of them to have any negative feelings whatsoever about it - emotionally or physically. It was more a case of "shrug - so what?" that would have about summed it up it seemed and the thought never even seemed to cross their mind to think about it. So - as long as a baby is given anaesthetic as appropriate in the case of that at the time = I don't see any problem with it and it's better for their health and for their partners health. Better all round imo. As long as there is the use of anaesthetic (and I don't know whether they do use anaesthetic or no to do that) = I don't see it personally as to why anyone would be against it.

The female version is a very very different thing - even if they used anaesthetic for it = it's just plain wrong/ruins a womans body permanently/can't begin to think how bad it must be to have a "relationship", a pregnancy or whatever and it's unmitigated evil to do that to a girl.

Iam64

It’s increasingly difficult to discuss ‘difficult issues ‘ on gransnet because complex issues seem inevitably to result in the demand for simple answers
Like FGM is bad, arrest any mother who doesn’t run away with her daughter to prevent the barbaric practice. Never mind that mum doesn’t want her or her daughter to step away from all they know.
Who will feed them keep them safe?

Personally I am all in favour of a "chat" style of whatever, and an indepth thread on the same issue sometimes.

GrannyGravy13

I am equally against circumcising 8 day old baby boys in the name of religion

FGM is barbarism to us, but is as normal in some tribes as circumcision is to Judaism.

I see your point, but (big huge BUT), FGM causes huge pain, it stops that female EVER getting any pleasure from sex and can cause lifelong physical and emotional issues.

Iam64

It’s increasingly difficult to discuss ‘difficult issues ‘ on gransnet because complex issues seem inevitably to result in the demand for simple answers
Like FGM is bad, arrest any mother who doesn’t run away with her daughter to prevent the barbaric practice. Never mind that mum doesn’t want her or her daughter to step away from all they know.
Who will feed them keep them safe?

That one has got my head going round in circles.

To ask "Who will feed them keep them safe" - when one way or another they could get fed (ie in the context of - whats left of - our Welfare State). Obviously it's very far from "keeping them safe" to have the poor child still near the agressor (yep the person or people wanting this done to said poor child are the "agressor" and the last thing to do is to keep that child near someone who is such a threat to her).

I am equally against circumcising 8 day old baby boys in the name of religion

FGM is barbarism to us, but is as normal in some tribes as circumcision is to Judaism.

Sorry, I really wish there was an edit button on here for people like me who have knee jerk reactions and litter my comments with typos!!

Well, all I can s WTAF! Have they seen the state of these poor poor girls after this (so called) surgery! It’s cruel, barbaric, mysogonistic and just appalling!

I’m betting it was a female doctor who said this and if it was then *********

😱😱🤯🤯

Yes, if the issue was 'simple' it would most likely have been resolved by now.

It’s increasingly difficult to discuss ‘difficult issues ‘ on gransnet because complex issues seem inevitably to result in the demand for simple answers
Like FGM is bad, arrest any mother who doesn’t run away with her daughter to prevent the barbaric practice. Never mind that mum doesn’t want her or her daughter to step away from all they know.
Who will feed them keep them safe?

Well, the premise of the post is that the BMJ has published an article defending FGM.
Now, either it has, or it has not.
As you say, probs not everyone has actually read the printed words.

However, this being a GN Thread, the focus seems to have morphed into a discussion around the actual 'practice', with which I get the impression, most of us disagree.
And now other issues of cultural 'practices' have been raised.
The OP is busy elsewhere and has not been back to comment and/or amend the Thread head.
For me, there has been some new information about FGM.