Gransnet forums

News & politics

Rachel Reeves said *WHAT*!

(92 Posts)
MaizieD Fri 30-Jan-26 13:16:45

LAst night I discovered that Rachel Reeves, I think in the context of being interviewed about student loans, had this to say:

"It is not right that people who don't go to university bear the cost for others to"

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that.

Leaving aside the point which I have made over and over again, that taxation doesn't fund spending because:

1) all money comes from the state, either by way of its direct spending on goods and services or via commercial bank loans, made under licence from the state.

2) Spending comes before taxation as without state spending money there would be no money to tax back

So no-one but the state itself is bearing the cost of University education.

Reeves' statement seems to me to be to be contradicting the Labour principles behind the provision of 'public goods' one of which is universal education. But, worse than that, it is promoting an attitude which has no logic. There are lots of services provided by the state which not everyone benefits from; we don't all use the courts, we don't all make heavy demands on the NHS, some people pay for private health services and don't use it al all, we don't all have children in state schools (understand that I'm using 'we' to encompass the whole UK population) to name but a few examples.

Reeves' statement makes it seem reasonable that people should complain and feel resentful about the state financing services which they themselves don't use. Where on earth is her 'reasoning' meant to lead us?

Are we to make an annual declaration of the state financed services we do use and receive a tax rebate to cover the cost of services we don't use?

Is it permission to resent and demonise those who do make more use of state provision than we do? (and heaven knows, there's more than enough of that going on already)

Is it move towards the privatisation and marketisation of all services so we can choose and pay for whichever ones we need (if we can afford it)?

Of course, since Thatcher, there has been an ideological move towards privatisation of as much state provision as governments can get away with because that is a driving feature of the neoliberal economic strategy which has informed government policy since then. It is still ongoing. How many people are able to get NHS dental treatment? How many private care providers are there, the numbers increasing as councils become more and more cash strapped?

I realise that there are differences of opinion over the balance between private and state funded services but I have always regarded Labour as. at heart, being in favour of state provision to ensure that all citizens have access to essential services.

That Reeves' apparent defence of the student loans which impose a heavy long term burden on those aspiring to better themselves through a university education and who in part comprise the teachers, nurses and doctors who are vital to the health and wellbeing of the population really worries me.

But her implication that a university education is a personal indulgence which doesn't deserve the support of the government and state support can be justifiably resented by those who don't go to university utterly astounds and sickens me.

I don't think Reeves has a single vaguely left wing, Labour principled bone in her body, she is in the wrong party and is totally unsuitable for high office in a Labour government.

Grantanow Sat 31-Jan-26 12:35:18

Galaxy

Many many people resent ( often quite rightly) those who don't work, particularly if there are concerns around the legitimacy of that non working.
I can completely understand why those on minimum wage might feel some level of resentment towards my middle class children receiving a grant towards university education which will more than likely give them a non minimum wage career.

There are plenty of non-graduates on high incomes such as self-employed plumbers and similar trades, footballers, TV personalities, trades union officials, MPs, etc., but people don't seem to resent them.

Allira Sat 31-Jan-26 14:36:01

Rosie51

Grantanow

Rosie51

Grantanow I agree, MaizieD. Education like other public services is a public good from which we all benefit and it should be funded through general taxation as it once was with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals.

with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.

No, if parents won't sign the form ( as sometimes happened in former times through ignorance, bad attitude to higher education, estrangement or sheer bloodymindedness) then the student should be assisted. It wd be possible to require parents' employers to provide salary information or extract income data via HMRC.

What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information? Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?

Precisely.

What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information?
Surely against Data Protection regulations?

Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?

Yes, they are adults - can parents be compelled to support them?

vegansrock Sat 31-Jan-26 14:41:52

University education is free… in Scotland. Just sayin’

Allira Sat 31-Jan-26 14:51:36

vegansrock

University education is free… in Scotland. Just sayin’

For Scottish students resident in Scotland.

Doodledog Sat 31-Jan-26 15:03:55

MaizieD

Doodledog

with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. ^If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.*
Agreed. It's either that or make contributions compulsory, and there would be numerous problems with that.

Also, one of the many problems with means-testing based on household income is that it is made up in different ways. Why should a family with two workers earning £20k each lose out, when a student from another with a single earner on £39k gets a grant because the other parent is unwilling to get a job? Maybe if a cut-off were set by dividing the income by the number of adults in the household it would be fairer. But then what about people who can't work for good reasons?

Obviously those figures are made up, but the point is that means-testing is such a blunt instrument.

I seem to recall that in the past student grants were tapered according to parental income rather than arbitrarily means tested.

I do think that there will be an element of unfairness for some in whatever system is used to assess receipts of such things as grants or benefits, Perhaps the most that can be done is to mitigate it as far as is possible.

If there is always going to be an element of unfairness in means-testing, why use it? It drags people down instead of enabling them.

As most graduates earn more than non-graduates over their careers, they will pay more tax, so why set up a complicated and expensive system of means-testing their parents?

Doodledog Sat 31-Jan-26 15:04:33

Sorry - I should have included that IMO education should be free to students capable of benefiting from it.

vegansrock Sat 31-Jan-26 17:30:46

Allira

vegansrock
University education is free… in Scotland. Just sayin’
For Scottish students resident in Scotland.

Yes - just saying that free university education is available within the UK.- For those residing in Scotland. It’s a matter of deciding whether or not university education should be free - it’s not an impossibility.

Mollygo Sun 01-Feb-26 12:29:11

Actually it’s free whether you’re Scottish or not. My cousin’s family let their house in Dorset and moved to Edinburgh whilst their children were at University.
They reckoned it was worthwhile and she made the most of it by studying midwifery while they were there.

Allira Sun 01-Feb-26 15:09:40

Mollygo

Actually it’s free whether you’re Scottish or not. My cousin’s family let their house in Dorset and moved to Edinburgh whilst their children were at University.
They reckoned it was worthwhile and she made the most of it by studying midwifery while they were there.

Yes, of course.
I should have said Scottish residents.

silverlining48 Sun 01-Feb-26 15:33:10

Off subject but I heard on the Today programme this morning that 53% of all students get a first. 53%! ? Astonishing. So given
say 35% or more get an upper second, that leaves what was once a perfectly decent 2.2 replacing the no longer even heard of Third.
If 90% of students are getting firsts and upper seconds they will all be in competition for the same jobs, it’s no wonder so many leave the country or continue their expensive studies to be able to get ahead of the crowd.

I graduated in the mid 80 s as a relatively mature student and not one of our large group of mixed aged students gained a first , a handful had 2.1s , the majority 2.2s and a few had third class degrees without the Hons.

We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus demoting a perfectly good A. If every other student is gaining a First degree, unless they are lucky, they are in competition for ‘starter level jobs’ with those who have left school at 16 or 18 who don’t expect the level of pay that a Graduate does. No wonder so many are claiming benefits.

silverlining48 Sun 01-Feb-26 15:46:26

To be accurate, it was yesterday morning 🌅

justwokeup Sun 01-Feb-26 15:54:51

I don't think Reeves has a single vaguely left wing, Labour principled bone in her body, she is in the wrong party and is totally unsuitable for high office in a Labour government.

I agree with your sentiments Maizie about student loans. Unfortunately I think the sentences above seem to apply to every politician in the Party, and most of the other parties too. I don’t recognise any Labour Party principles from my younger days, and from which I benefited, in the members of the current government. Other parties similarly - career politicians defecting to seemingly more popular parties. No wonder voters don’t turn out when our system of government is used by these self-serving people for their own ends.

MartavTaurus Sun 01-Feb-26 16:51:41

We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus denoting a perfectly good A.
Not any longer, since 2017 onwards. We don't have stars anymore, we don't have letters, we have grades 9 - 1.
It is sort of possible to align the new numbers with the old grades, but no stars at the top.

Mamie Sun 01-Feb-26 17:55:35

silverlining48

Off subject but I heard on the Today programme this morning that 53% of all students get a first. 53%! ? Astonishing. So given
say 35% or more get an upper second, that leaves what was once a perfectly decent 2.2 replacing the no longer even heard of Third.
If 90% of students are getting firsts and upper seconds they will all be in competition for the same jobs, it’s no wonder so many leave the country or continue their expensive studies to be able to get ahead of the crowd.

I graduated in the mid 80 s as a relatively mature student and not one of our large group of mixed aged students gained a first , a handful had 2.1s , the majority 2.2s and a few had third class degrees without the Hons.

We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus demoting a perfectly good A. If every other student is gaining a First degree, unless they are lucky, they are in competition for ‘starter level jobs’ with those who have left school at 16 or 18 who don’t expect the level of pay that a Graduate does. No wonder so many are claiming benefits.

The Office for statistics says 29% of UK graduates get a first. An A* is an A level grade not GCSE.

silverlining48 Sun 01-Feb-26 18:57:55

Yes mamie , my mistake, but 53% was quoted yesterday as I said. There was some discussion about it.
I can only report what I heard

Allira Sun 01-Feb-26 20:22:58

MartavTaurus

^We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus denoting a perfectly good A.^
Not any longer, since 2017 onwards. We don't have stars anymore, we don't have letters, we have grades 9 - 1.
It is sort of possible to align the new numbers with the old grades, but no stars at the top.

Still A*-G and A*-E in Wales.

Behind the times.

Grantanow Mon 02-Feb-26 14:02:02

Allira

Rosie51

Grantanow

Rosie51

Grantanow I agree, MaizieD. Education like other public services is a public good from which we all benefit and it should be funded through general taxation as it once was with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals.

with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.

No, if parents won't sign the form ( as sometimes happened in former times through ignorance, bad attitude to higher education, estrangement or sheer bloodymindedness) then the student should be assisted. It wd be possible to require parents' employers to provide salary information or extract income data via HMRC.

What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information? Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?

Precisely.

What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information?
Surely against Data Protection regulations?

Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?

Yes, they are adults - can parents be compelled to support them?

It wd be possible to compel parental cintribution through salary deduction but my preference wd be for university fees to be free and for a maintenance grant to be paid to all students irrespective of parental income (and based on the student's own income if that were relevant).

I wd however be inclined to reduce significantly the number of university places to encourage more take up of vocational training in the FE sector and increase FE sector funding accordingly.

Milest0ne Mon 02-Feb-26 15:28:26

DD 1 got a full grant when she went to Uni. We had to give information on mortgage, travel to work costs. ground rent and other outgoings. .DD2 two years later got a small grant but we were assessed and given an amount we should contribute .
I wonder how much my GS will need to go to Uni, his parents will have retired by the time he will be going to Uni.
Bank of Grandma & Grandad?

Kats2 Mon 02-Feb-26 15:29:46

Bear in mind it was Tony Blairs government that brought in University fees..So that effectively cut the amount of bright children from poorer families being able to go on to university…

Riversidegirl Mon 02-Feb-26 15:38:36

I worked in a County Council student system for more years than I dare admit! Went through the whole caboodle: FE maintenance grants, discretionary grants, student grants, student loan trialling, THEN they decided to remove the whole system to Glasgow and it became Student Loans. We all told the government it would never work. I loved my job, loved looking after the students and their parents. Some were obnoxious, and knew their rights, but the majority were grateful that their children (and sometimes themselves) were receiving a free education. Goodness knows how much money has gone down the pan through fraud, wastage, emigration, etc. But as the high ups always said (to our anger) "it's not our money". And that's why we are in this mess.

Nannan2 Mon 02-Feb-26 16:05:08

How ade 'we' paying for university education when in England it is a LOAN,the students have to )mostly) pay it back in the end so unless you're a student in the other uk countries YOU DONT GET IT FOR FREE- no one is paying for it for English students,they get it loaned to them.What is NOT fair is that other british countries get practically everything free whilst English people do not.We should all be same,all free all or all paying.

Nannan2 Mon 02-Feb-26 16:05:25

* How are

Nannan2 Mon 02-Feb-26 16:08:28

And i have been saying all along that Reeves (i believe) is a secret conservative.! And it seems more& more that Starmer is following her lead,not the other way around.

WithNobsOnIt Mon 02-Feb-26 16:19:28

University degrees in the UK have become big business. With their high fees and masses of overseas students mainly Chinese in my cit

They follow the American model of charging for everything and the bigger ones are very wealthy indeed.

They also make a fortune from letting their student accomodation.

I do think students should pay at the very least for their tuition fees.

l did when l did a one day a week part time BSc Computing degree in the nineties and worked full time as well

There are still also lots of Mickey Mouse degrees.about.The sort of Humanities degree that was popular in sixties. When some degree were looked upon as a three years doss about. With nothing to pay back.

we also have the problem of thousands of EU students who studied in the UK before Brexit and have never paid a penny back..And never will. Sunk without trace.

There was a large enclave of these people in the flats near.to where l live
Headed by Greeks, Spanish and Portuguese.

I think with AI will be a massive revolution in all types jobs and education which will completely transform everything.

icanhandthemback Mon 02-Feb-26 16:30:56

It isn't the Student Loan per se I disagree with it is the higher rate of interest than it needs to be and the students on Plan 2 are particularly fleeced. There was an article in one of the papers over the weekend which told of a pair of twins who went to University a year apart. The difference in the amount of the repayments and interest charged for the later student was tremendous. The way interest is charged as you go but payments do not get credited until the year end is disgusting. No other loan's company would get away with this.