Makerfield: Reform candidate sexist?

I don't think the Reform candidate was put up to win. Farage wants Burnham to win so that Burnham will challenge
Starmer, hence the poor choice of candidate.I only hope his machinations go pear shaped. Wonder how much has been put on in bets on the market .

Maybe Joe public are fed up with the politicians we’ve had for the past 1000 years and want ‘the ordinary bloke in the street’ to represent them. The person who isn’t perfect, the person who has made mistakes, just like they have.
Because guess what, it’s not just 75 year old middle class women who vote.

Doodledog

Oreo

There’s nothing wrong with him being a plumber, there was rapture when the blonde plumber from the Greens won recently wasn’t there?
It’s all about what kind of an MP he would make for his constituents if he did win this by-election.
Nobody will know that until it happens.

The 'better a political chancer (I paraphrase) than a plumber who's a sexist' comment was made by an audience member, and has been picked up on on this thread. I don't think it was meant as disrespectful to plumbers in either case - it was specifically aimed at Kenyon.

I also know what you mean, Galaxy, and don't disagree, but the doublespeak and gaslighting of the trans supporters can't get in the way of every single political discussion. Yes, there were people saying stupid things, and yes, IMO they knew they were stupid. But a discussion of why they felt it expedient to say them, whilst interesting in itself, will prevent any other discussion if it is dragged into every single debate.

Also, trans support and being articulate or otherwise are not linked. Where they coexist it is correlation, not causation - plenty of threads on here and elsewhere have shown that.

👏👏

Kadinsky do you really see Kemyon as the ordinary bloke in the street. I don’t. I also believe our political representatives should have more to offfer than he does

Witzend

J52

I watched the whole programme, my conclusion is; do people want a professional, erudite, polite member of parliament or a plumber with very little understanding of politics? I gathered this opinion from what I heard last night, others who watched the programme my have different well informed opinions.

You are casting aspersions on plumbers in general.

Very rude and patronising J52!!

Kandinsky

Maybe Joe public are fed up with the politicians we’ve had for the past 1000 years and want ‘the ordinary bloke in the street’ to represent them. The person who isn’t perfect, the person who has made mistakes, just like they have.
Because guess what, it’s not just 75 year old middle class women who vote.

Or we could always clone Mandelson! After all, he’s a wonderful example of something!! 🙄

Shinamae

Witzend

J52

I watched the whole programme, my conclusion is; do people want a professional, erudite, polite member of parliament or a plumber with very little understanding of politics? I gathered this opinion from what I heard last night, others who watched the programme my have different well informed opinions.

You are casting aspersions on plumbers in general.

Very rude and patronising J52!!

I don't think J52 was rude or casting aspersions on plumbers in general. Burnham is a professional politician and Kenyon is a plumber who displayed on the programme he has little understanding of politics. As many others have said he was also not very articulate.

J52 was asking a rational question and the voters of Markerfield will vote to determine the answer.

MissAdventure

Johstone said some astounding things in his time.
Is that forgotten?

They’re not mutually exclusive.

Kenyon comes across to me less as an 'ordinary bloke on the street', that is generally working class or hard working, has good values and lacks pretence and arrogance- more a 'sleazy geezer'.

Of the 2, on the programme, Burnham came across more as the ordinary bloke on the street, ordinary clothes, with good values, known to be hard working for Greater Manchester and he has strong working class roots in the area.

Kenyon comes across more as 'sleazy geezer' than an ordinary bloke. Yes he is woking class, but he's a bit shady (e.g. his racist and misogynistic social media commentary) and his questionable values would not normally be associated with the 'ordinary bloke on the street'.

Sleaze and politics is never a good fit.

Cossy

MissAdventure

I was taught that his speeches were a good part of why people engaged with ideals you'd never have imagined they could.

I also learned that, I was also taught that initially Hitler gave good, concise speeches centred on the economy and “making Germany great”.

Then, of course, the rest is history!

According to Richard J Evans, who is the most informed historian of 20th century Germany, Hitler's first speeches were incoherent. That's why his real motivations are still disputed.

It was Goebbels who was the Nazi wordsmith and wrote Hitler's speeches. He made use of various rhetorical devices which captivated audiences.

Where's Allira?

LemonJam

Kenyon comes across to me less as an 'ordinary bloke on the street', that is generally working class or hard working, has good values and lacks pretence and arrogance- more a 'sleazy geezer'.

Of the 2, on the programme, Burnham came across more as the ordinary bloke on the street, ordinary clothes, with good values, known to be hard working for Greater Manchester and he has strong working class roots in the area.

Kenyon comes across more as 'sleazy geezer' than an ordinary bloke. Yes he is woking class, but he's a bit shady (e.g. his racist and misogynistic social media commentary) and his questionable values would not normally be associated with the 'ordinary bloke on the street'.

Sleaze and politics is never a good fit.

Maybe he's forgotten that half the people voting for him will be women. The looks on the faces of the women on Question Time gave the impression that the ordinary women of Makerfield aren't too impressed with Kenyon.

Shinamae

Witzend

J52

I watched the whole programme, my conclusion is; do people want a professional, erudite, polite member of parliament or a plumber with very little understanding of politics? I gathered this opinion from what I heard last night, others who watched the programme my have different well informed opinions.

You are casting aspersions on plumbers in general.

Very rude and patronising J52!!

As is your post.
Kenyon is a plumber - fact, he has little or no political experience - fact.

See my reply to Witzend Friday 5th at 16:56.

Wyllow3

Well, from the Manchester Evening news:

"The sexist comments have become a dominant issue, drawing fierce condemnation and likely harming his standing in a tight race.

While his party fully backs him as a "straight-talking" candidate, the backlash from political rivals, public figures, and voters is directly impacting his campaign's momentum in the Makerfield by-election.

From late may -in the Independent newspaper more choice quote from Kenyon

"Women can’t ref, drive or give directions’: Reform candidate sexism row deepens as more ‘degrading’ posts resurface.

And
An account linked to Robert Kenyon claimed ‘English women just walk around with their fat bellies and odd shapes pushing a pram at 16’. (and are, about he would fancy a "European women".

Now that will go down a storm?

🙄

Just spare us ignorant misogynists like him..*an MP*, fgs?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/reform-uk-robert-kenyon-comments-misogynistic-b2983146.html

While his party fully backs him as a "straight-talking" candidate...

Yes, a sexist oaf who goes the extra mile to be as offensive as he thinks he can get away with, is not only not reprimanded by his supporters/party - his ignorant outburst is actually turned into a virtue.

If ultimately forced into the defensive position, the straight-talking then becomes locker-room talk - which is OK because men talking about women like that is acceptable as long as it's in the club-room.

... as if girls and women don't have enough to put up with from the growing Andrew-Tate-School-of-Misogyny culture...

Kandinsky

Maybe Joe public are fed up with the politicians we’ve had for the past 1000 years and want ‘the ordinary bloke in the street’ to represent them. The person who isn’t perfect, the person who has made mistakes, just like they have.
Because guess what, it’s not just 75 year old middle class women who vote.

I'd be very happy for an ordinary bloke in the street to represent me - someone who is in touch with and understands people's everyday lives - but misogyny, sexism, and prejudice are not mistakes. - they are character traits which are not exclusive to ordinary blokes; a bigot in a suit is no different to one in overalls and I suspect it isn't only 75-year-old middle-class women who don't feel represented by them.

Hear, hear, Dickens. Kenyon is no “ordinary bloke”. The working class family I grew up in would have been horrified by his behaviour and comments. The exception being my father and latterly brother who were ostracised for their violence against my mother and I.

Clearly there are those here who appear to believe Kenyons comments are appreciated by women becuase they are younger than 75?

Hmm. Imagine being "courted" by Kenyon knowing you are being "marked" on your shagability, your status amongst the men in the locker room, nothing to do with your real personality, what you have to give to the world, your caring, your warmth, your family life?

There is an astounding lack of information as to any women in his life. Quelle surprise.

Sheesh - give me a break.

Wyllow3

Clearly there are those here who appear to believe Kenyons comments are appreciated by women becuase they are younger than 75?

Hmm. Imagine being "courted" by Kenyon knowing you are being "marked" on your shagability, your status amongst the men in the locker room, nothing to do with your real personality, what you have to give to the world, your caring, your warmth, your family life?

There is an astounding lack of information as to any women in his life. Quelle surprise.

Sheesh - give me a break.

Hmm. Imagine being "courted" by Kenyon knowing you are being "marked" on your shagability...

My ex was a Lighterman (1970s). Because we lived in south west London, it was a longish journey home from, usually, the docks in east London; this meant that he mostly had to forego the traditional drink with the other hands after tying-up. To make up for it, when he attended Union meetings in - for example - Canning Town - he would go down to the bar with the 'lads' afterward to socialise and discuss Union issues.

He told me that during these social drinks he often felt quite uncomfortable with the way some of the men talked about women... it wasn't simply that they objectified them - it was the obscene language they used. It made him wince, and he was no shrinking violet. I hasten to add they were not all oafs, and my ex was not the only one who felt uncomfortable. As the evening progressed and the 'banter' got louder and more offensive, often the older men would drink-up and walk out.

What struck me, and my ex, was that these men had mothers, wives and young daughters - I can't compute this.

'Boys will be boys' and 'men will be men' - hmm, that doesn't validate them, not for me. A man joking about a woman's genitals to amuse other men (an example from my ex) is pig-ignorant and needs calling out on his gross, offensive vulgarity. 'Locker-room' talk? Is that really acceptable? I thought it was dying out, a relic from the past. Clearly it's not!

It took until 2019 for the Oxford University Conservative P to split with the notorious Bullingdon Club for its record of the most appalling misogyny. It's in all classes. sometimes more covert than these examples.

Yes as you say Dickens those very men - but what would they say if their own daughters were subject to this? "Oh we would protect her". We are not "things" to be mocked nor in that sense protected by what should not happen in the first place.

Now we come to Farage, the party leader. It's quite clear, since they knew before Kenyon was chosen, that deep down they don't really give a d* about objectifying women, not really.

What they do believe in because there specify it in their manifestos is scrapping any diversity support for women - yet its the likes of Kenyon that make support still necessary.

Make no mistake - Reform is not out to support women's rights even in the workplace or take care to investigate its candidates.

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Aveline 👍🏻

I was pondering that there is something also very sad about that age group of men who behave like that, for it doesn't make them happy necessarily to find common ground in abusing women.

I'm thinking of course of the high suicide rate of that age group of men, trapped in a culture that doesn't allow for tenderness and vulnerability.

What I do try to do is encourage the Men's Shed and similar initiatives. One has to wonder if some of those locker room voices have to put women down as they are afraid: women have a lot of power in aspects of life when it comes to emotional awareness.

Wyllow3

One has to wonder if some of those locker room voices have to put women down as they are afraid: women have a lot of power in aspects of life when it comes to emotional awareness.

I had a long discussion with my son on this subject last year when he came over to visit me from abroad. He also experienced the pub-bar/locker-room "talk" - like his father, he was apprenticed as a Lighterman in the late 80s and it was the same-old, same-old. But he had hobbies and a girl-friend so basically avoided the socialising aspect of the job.

We came to the conclusion that, as many have fathomed, misogyny stems from fear, inadequacy, and maybe lack of self-esteem As is - I think - misandry. I mean, it just is not normal to obsessively hate the opposite sex or another demographic is it?

It's a complex matter so I'm not going to warble on and pretend I've got the answers. But you are right, women do now have a lot more power and clearly there are men who feel threatened by this. As has been said, it comes to something when equality feels like oppression to these men.

My son is emotionally mature, as was his father, my ex - that's not a boast either, neither grew up in an environment where they had to constantly 'prove' themselves. And there are millions of men who are emotionally stable.

I suppose when a certain group has always dominated society, almost wordwide, since time immemorial, they are going to react defensively when their authority is challenged and they are told that they must treat those they were accustomed to dominate as their euals.

It isn't a lot different to the end of colonialism when the 'mother country', and their were many 'mother countries' are told by colonies that they are uite able to govern themselves without outside help. This led to violence and anger as the country in charge, at first, rejected these claims.

However, even allowing for the dominant group having difficulty accepting their loss of authority, that is very different from aggressively trying to keep extreme authority by vicious, in this case, misogny.

We have seen leaps and bound forward from a whole number of men, but clearly with levels of current abuse etc not enough:

Work in progress for us mums, grans, friends, at work, where we go.

I'm quite clear in my heart and mind that my Ex who was coercively abusive was deep down frightened of women's power. Not because they had got jobs at work or obvious equality issues - tho there were rumblings about equal ops - he had had a s**t nasty father who had put his mum down all his life and know it but repeated it.

it took me along time to cotton on. there were hints like he wouldn't own that, for example, that we women together talk differently sometimes and - gasp - talk about men even them!!!

That he had had trouble work wise becoming the success he had wanted to be, and tried to keep dominance by putting me down in a myriad of little ways.

You see, it didnt bother me a bit he was not a successful career man, but it bothered him and he couldn't get over it.

work in progress as the generations go on

but the likes of Kenyon are taking us backwards in so many respects I don't know where to begin

it could be so very different - and what men or women are like in their own lives does say something about them as a politician, you an say what you like but how we treat those closest to us is really significant.