Makerfield: Reform candidate sexist?

LizzieDrip

Galaxy

The articulate ones are usually the worst, they hide their misogyny.

Eh? What’s that supposed to mean?

LizzieDrip
Have you never read anything on what a misogynistic cesspool some of the Oxford/ Cambridge clubs are.

Yes, I referred to the Bullingdon club upthread. Yukky lot, thought they were the bees knees and they were entitled *hits many of them - but actually very weak men underneath imo.

There were plenty at Cambridge too. As a student radical, one of my contributions was to stand up on the stage with another women during a large sit in telling off the young men for wanting to play blue movies through the night. It was the early 1970's and feminism had entered the scene. 🫶

Galaxy

Oh he absolutely won't be able to do anything, he is a second rate version of Johnson.

I uite agree, but I think we make a mistake in not taking him seriously when there are so many people prepared to vote form.

It is a sign of a deep malaise in this country, that for too long politicians have been losing touch with voters. In the past we had knights from the shires, and union officials who had been working in factories and industry for decades before becoming MPs. Both groups were rooted in their local area and knew and understood the problems of their area and their voters. The swing to London-centric, political careerists has broken that link, too many do not know or deeply understand the people they represent.

In the past MPs were based in their constituencies and came up to London for Parliament. Parliament actually ended their proceedings early on a Friday so that MPs could get home for the weekend. Now too many MPS lives are in London and they go out to visit their constituencies, they may have a home in the constituency, but their true home and centre of life is London.

Galaxy

Yeah I am half German so I have a fairly good knowledge thanks. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their knowledge is inferior.

In my experience, Germans aren't always the best placed to understand their own history. I really am surprised in your case because you have shown little understanding of what happened.

It's not a question of disagreeing with me, but not showing an understanding of what happened.

In my experience, Germans aren't always the best placed to understand their own history. I really am surprised in your case because you have shown little understanding of what happened

That takes the biscuit!
Does that mean the English are similarly not best placed to understand their history? The French, Napoleon or Donald Trump, the American War of Independence..
On second thoughts, scrub that last example
But seriously - how dismissive, not to say arrogant

Not at all! Germany and Germans spent decades coming to terms with the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. West and East Germans approached in different ways. Post-war Germany is probably one of the most well-documented periods of history because it is so difficult to understand how it happened. Many Germans who lived through the 1930s and the war didn't/don't want to talk about it and find it difficult to accept their own part in the rise of Nazism.

I'm certainly not being dismissive, although I sometimes think that there are those who are. I also dispute your accusation of arrogance. Why am I being arrogant about something nearly every single serious historian agrees about?

For the first time, I have begun to understand the thinking of people in 1930s Germany (and Europe generally) and I truly believe that people who can't see what is unfolding in front of their noses are blinkered. That's not arrogance.

Incidentally, I don't think the English are necessarily the best people to understand their own history nor the French or Americans. Most people's understanding of their own history is partisan and biased.

I agree again Monica, I think one of the other reasons is also a failure of the left and I think that is also to do with the middle class increasingly dominating the direction of the labour party. I find the disconnect between those in power and their voters deeply concerning.

Not at all! Germany and Germans spent decades coming to terms with the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. West and East Germans approached in different ways. Post-war Germany is probably one of the most well-documented periods of history because it is so difficult to understand how it happened. Many Germans who lived through the 1930s and the war didn't/don't want to talk about it and find it difficult to accept their own part in the rise of Nazism

I hope you are not suggesting that Galaxy either lived through 1930’s Germany or has any part in the rise of Nazism.

I too am half German and have not only studied but also taught German history from the Weimar Republic to the fall of the Berlin Wall and Reunification.
I trust my ethnic background does not /did not detract from my qualifications to do so.

I tell you what if I had lived through the 1930 s I would be more than irritated that I am having to go to work today.

Galaxy

I agree again Monica, I think one of the other reasons is also a failure of the left and I think that is also to do with the middle class increasingly dominating the direction of the labour party. I find the disconnect between those in power and their voters deeply concerning.

I think one of the most destructive facets of Left ideology has been (and still is) its insistence on what we jokingly call "political correctness". PC is real, amd it's a damaging culture because it stifles or closes down debate and discussion - if you oppose it, you're seen as a bigot - one who wants to continue to use outdated and insulting terminology which, in my case, could not be further from the truth... I never used that kind of terminology in the first place.

Hard-line xenophobes and bigots aside - there were voices on both the Left and the Right that should have been listened to, but weren't, because they didn't follow the narrative.

I often think the comparisons between reform and Trump deeply unhelpful but I think it might have been useful to look at the failures of the Democrats and what we could learn from that.
I have been pretty much centre left my whole life, I don't hold any of the values currently being shouted about by the left or the progressives or whatever we can call them.
I wouldn't vote reform but I wouldn't vote against reform if you see what I mean.
Perhaps it is the German in me rebelling against my past 😃 but the authoritarian approach of the progressives scares me.

Dickens

Galaxy

I agree again Monica, I think one of the other reasons is also a failure of the left and I think that is also to do with the middle class increasingly dominating the direction of the labour party. I find the disconnect between those in power and their voters deeply concerning.

I think one of the most destructive facets of Left ideology has been (and still is) its insistence on what we jokingly call "political correctness". PC is real, amd it's a damaging culture because it stifles or closes down debate and discussion - if you oppose it, you're seen as a bigot - one who wants to continue to use outdated and insulting terminology which, in my case, could not be further from the truth... I never used that kind of terminology in the first place.

Hard-line xenophobes and bigots aside - there were voices on both the Left and the Right that should have been listened to, but weren't, because they didn't follow the narrative.

The sad fact is that the Left despises and patronises the people they describe as 'working class' and who theoretically they want to free.

If you look at those people who vote Reform, the majority live in areas that previously elected labour MPs and, I think, that is significant.

The failures of the Democrats. Yes, it took far too long for them to accept that, in that election, Biden was the wrong candidate.
With dreadful consequences.

Who is fuelling the 'deep malaise' in this country?
Who wants the Reform Limited Company to succeed?
From which sources do 'unhappy' people get their catch phrases/sound bites?
Who is pushing Farage into the spotlight?

^ The sad fact is that the Left despises and patronises the people they describe as 'working class' and who theoretically they want to free^

Some examples would be helpful, MOnica. Who is ‘the left’ and how have they despised and patronised ‘the working class’?

There are so many unsubstantiated accusations being thrown around in this conversation. It does seem to be giving the impression that being labelled as ‘left’ is every bit as insulting as the right intend it to be.

MaizieD

^ The sad fact is that the Left despises and patronises the people they describe as 'working class' and who theoretically they want to free^

Some examples would be helpful, MOnica. Who is ‘the left’ and how have they despised and patronised ‘the working class’?

There are so many unsubstantiated accusations being thrown around in this conversation. It does seem to be giving the impression that being labelled as ‘left’ is every bit as insulting as the right intend it to be.

Calling people left or right has become meaningless, both are thrown around so often nowadays.

I like many others just switch off at these intentional insults

I switch off at the insults, but the participants in the last few posts on this thread are very serious people so I’m trying hard to work out just what they are condemning about ‘the left’ and ‘progressives’. Because they really don’t seem to like them.

GG13
Calling people left or right has become meaningless, both are thrown around so often nowadays.

I wonder how many people actually know what it means outside defining the party that they favour.

Most political analysts agree that a simple left-to-right line is too simplistic to capture the full scope of political beliefs.
Many modern models add a second axis measuring authoritarianism versus libertarianism (the degree to which you believe the government should control personal lives and social behaviours) to create a more comprehensive Political Compass.

twaddle

Not at all! Germany and Germans spent decades coming to terms with the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. West and East Germans approached in different ways. Post-war Germany is probably one of the most well-documented periods of history because it is so difficult to understand how it happened. Many Germans who lived through the 1930s and the war didn't/don't want to talk about it and find it difficult to accept their own part in the rise of Nazism.

I'm certainly not being dismissive, although I sometimes think that there are those who are. I also dispute your accusation of arrogance. Why am I being arrogant about something nearly every single serious historian agrees about?

For the first time, I have begun to understand the thinking of people in 1930s Germany (and Europe generally) and I truly believe that people who can't see what is unfolding in front of their noses are blinkered. That's not arrogance.

Incidentally, I don't think the English are necessarily the best people to understand their own history nor the French or Americans. Most people's understanding of their own history is partisan and biased.

If you are coming to an understanding, can you please recommend some sources? I agree that many sources about the Nazi era are 'partisan and biased'. For example the Nazi social welfare programmes are given short shrift, but must have helped give them some perceived legitimacy.

There are too many generalisations for me in the ‘progressives/lefties/fascists/whatever’ categorisations of people. I prefer to listen to what people actually say and agree with some of it and not with others.

I do think that some of polities can be well-meaning but lose sight of what the real impact on those most affected by them will be. An obvious example is in-work benefits. Yes, there are those who can’t afford to live on low wages, so topping them up seems a good idea, but then people are trapped in a situation where they can’t improve their lives without losing money, and they have to declare any increase (a gift of money, an inheritance, a scratchcard win) and are told how they can and can’t spend it if they don’t want to lose their regular income. There is no incentive to increase their hours or to try for promotion, so when the youngest child leaves education and the benefits are lost, the parents are back to struggling on low wages.

Similarly, means-testing can sound fair if you have enough money not to be subject to it. But it’s not fair to someone who is above thresholds because they have saved or managed to climb a few rungs on the work ladder you find themselves worse off than neighbours who did neither. That applies to benefits (even child benefit is means-tested), pensions, care homes and more. Calling it ‘targeted’ doesn’t alter that.

There is also what I will charitably call cognitive dissonance. People who call themselves left-leaning and compassionate, but pay someone to make sure they don’t pay a penny more in tax than is strictly necessary. Or who go on about how fewer young people should go to university when all their children have been, but they can’t find a decent plumber willing to work cheaply. And those who live nowhere near deprived areas who sneer at those who do when they complain about asylum seekers being housed nearby, or schemes to ‘integrate’ problem families into estates with predominantly law-abiding residents. It’s the ‘bigoted woman’ thin writ large, really, but it’s very common amongst my largely middle class soft-left friends and acquaintances.

All the same, criticising everyone on the left/progressives doesn’t help. Far better to look for better policies based on talking to those who will be affected by them. It’s the aspirational working class and the precarious lower middle class who make up most of the population (I think - they used to, anyway) and they always lose out. They pay PAYE, don’t have enough money to make accountants worthwhile, but have too much to get benefits. They are happy to work for progression, but see those who don’t being given the money they have worked for, and they resent it. Labour needs to win them back.

i remember learning about the authoritarian/libertrian axis almost 60 years ago at university. I still think the 4 quadrants produced when that axis is used with the left/right one is quite useful. At leat as a starting point.

Goodness Doodledog - i need to make a cup of tea, sit down and have a long think about your post.

Very interesting piece on All in the Mind this morning.
I would link but it’s not available.
It talks about what happens to the body and mind when you feel anger/rage and have nowhere to put those feelings.

Excellent post at 10.00 Doodledog

That's very well thought out, Doodledog, thank you.

As regards the libertarian axis, I think there are examples from both left and right, in different ways. Attempts to pin it to the "opposition" generally can be counter-argued.

I take your point MOnica about time spent in London. the problem is, a conscientious MP spends good amounts of time in committees where there is often, once they sit down, some good cross party work, like for example debating the details of protecting young people on the social media front.

A well funded MP has really good arrangements at the constituency to cover then for people coming needing help, or to get projects off the ground, but it does cost, and some are far better than others at it.