Andy Burnham won Makerfield

I don't think that's true. The Conservatives would never have put VAT on school fees,

And that is not true either. We can't say that about VAT on school fees. I'm not sure that the Tories wouldn't have done this too at some point. There were a lot of people in the Conservative party who would have gone along with it. There are no certainties.

Well am glad Andy won the by election but not glad that there will now be a leadership circus when the country needs it like a hole in the head.
At this point any promises made by Andy may as well be written on loo paper, is the same with any careerist politician trying to get ahead or opposition parties, once PM things change, they always do, and promises will be broken.
Will see.

More votes than all the other contenders- an emphatic win. He did it without divisiveness and thats a good change to see and the change politics needs.

I don’t think we will have months of leadership infighting. I suspect it will be short, clinical and again decisively in Burnham’s favour. His speech was good - let’s hope the path for change works out as hoped for the benefit of the country.

Im so glad Reform didnt get anywhere.

GrannyGravy13

CatsWhiskas I was referring to the revolving door of No.10

Oh! I misunderstood you! I think Liz Truss's record is going to take some beating.

MartavTaurus

^I don't think that's true. The Conservatives would never have put VAT on school fees,^

And that is not true either. We can't say that about VAT on school fees. I'm not sure that the Tories wouldn't have done this too at some point. There were a lot of people in the Conservative party who would have gone along with it. There are no certainties.

They Conservatives had long enough to put VAT on school fees, fairly obvious it wasn't going to happen.

CatsWhiskas

GrannyGravy13

CatsWhiskas I was referring to the revolving door of No.10

Oh! I misunderstood you! I think Liz Truss's record is going to take some beating.

I totally agree.

The Conservatives screwed up big time electing her as leader, I still wonder what on earth people were thinking voting for her 🤷‍♀️

MaizieD

Casdon

David49

I would have been stunned if he didn't win the momentum behind him was massive, Reform hasn't gone away smaller parties including the Tories came nowhere.

There is every reason why MPs rally round Burnham and depose Starmer immediately, they obviously want a change so why wait until after the summer break. Burnham "talks the talk" and should unite the Labour Party whether he can score enough successes to win the next election will be the real test.

And yet if you look at the Aberdeen South by election result yesterday, the Tories won easily, they got their first by election victory in Scotland for over fifty years. Reform came nowhere, nor did Labour or the Lib Dem’s. It’s all very interesting.

Aberdeen, the ‘oil city’ which has lost out on the decline in fossil fuels. The tories promised a greater concentration on the continuing use of fossil fuels. I’m not surprised that Aberdonians went for that. I think it’s a flash in the pan which won’t do much for their fortunes elsewhere.

Aberdeen South have played straight into Stephen Flynn's hands.

GrannyGravy13

Now we shall have weeks if not months of uncertainty whilst Labour continues its infighting.

Should have kept the Conservatives…

When we used to have weeks if not months of uncertainty whilst they chose their next leader. Pot kettle black

MayBee70

Not aware that Labour were planning to abolish it

I have never trusted Rachel Reeves with her itchy fingers. Hopefully if all Burnham's plans come to fruition he will find another Chancellor. Quite frankly, anyone would be better than her.

If the best we can say is they are the same as the conservatives it isnt particularly inspiring.
The adults are back in the room. Or maybe not.

Galaxy

If the best we can say is they are the same as the conservatives it isnt particularly inspiring.
The adults are back in the room. Or maybe not.

The adults are back in the room

That oft used phrase on GN after the last election.

That’s coming back to bite them on the bum 🤦‍♀️

Galaxy

If the best we can say is they are the same as the conservatives it isnt particularly inspiring.
The adults are back in the room. Or maybe not.

I don’t disagree with that statement necessarily but I was just addressing the implicit view that Tories never changed leaders which you must admit was pretty risible

There are significant differences in the way that new party leaders are elected between parties, here’s a good explainer.
consoc.org.uk/choosing-party-leaders/

OldFrill

MartavTaurus

I don't think that's true. The Conservatives would never have put VAT on school fees,

And that is not true either. We can't say that about VAT on school fees. I'm not sure that the Tories wouldn't have done this too at some point. There were a lot of people in the Conservative party who would have gone along with it. There are no certainties.

They Conservatives had long enough to put VAT on school fees, fairly obvious it wasn't going to happen.

But they certainly considered it. Michael Gove and Co discussed it, with a different cabinet - as often happens - who knows?

GemmaMack

But it’s a great result for Andy Burnham and a huge blow to Reform

I agree there, however, the leadership challenge will divide the party and cause fiscal instability.

His “pledges” are really not a lot different from Starmer, and look what happened to half of those?

What is really like to see is Starmer staying where he is, and Burnham appointed as Chancellor and his deputy.

I don’t like this whole shenanigans of someone stepping down to allow Burnham to stand and then call a leadership contest.

Starmer won’t step down quietly, rightly or wrongly it appears he feels he was given 5 years to do a job and get results and is only being allowed two years.

Frankly it’s a mess.

I’m very very glad that Burnham saw off Reform and his victory does send a clear message about national politics, but, for me, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Only time will tell.

GrannyGravy13

Galaxy

If the best we can say is they are the same as the conservatives it isnt particularly inspiring.
The adults are back in the room. Or maybe not.

The adults are back in the room

That oft used phrase on GN after the last election.

That’s coming back to bite them on the bum 🤦‍♀️

😂 👏

OldFrill

MartavTaurus

I don't think that's true. The Conservatives would never have put VAT on school fees,

And that is not true either. We can't say that about VAT on school fees. I'm not sure that the Tories wouldn't have done this too at some point. There were a lot of people in the Conservative party who would have gone along with it. There are no certainties.

They Conservatives had long enough to put VAT on school fees, fairly obvious it wasn't going to happen.

I think the Tories would have thought that through much more than Labour did. They assumed that all children at private schools have very wealthy parents who would not blink an eye at the 20% VAT increase. Fair enough. However, there are many SEND children who attend private schools purely because this country's mainstream education system has failed them. The vast majority of them do not have rich parents. Labour's refusal to listen has resulted in many SEND children having to go back into mainstream education which has already failed them, because their families cannot afford the increase. Cruel really.

Fallingstar

Well am glad Andy won the by election but not glad that there will now be a leadership circus when the country needs it like a hole in the head.
At this point any promises made by Andy may as well be written on loo paper, is the same with any careerist politician trying to get ahead or opposition parties, once PM things change, they always do, and promises will be broken.
Will see.

Absolutely! I could not agree more?

VAT on school fees was a proposal that was considered during the Cameron/Clegg coalition government. If I remember, it was Liz Truss who was against it, but it wasn't dismissed out of hand. Then Brexit took over.

I worry that the same 'excitement' about change that now seems to exist around Burnham, only five minutes ago surrounded Starmer ( and I voted for Starmer) , I don't think anything of it is real or meaningful.
I have depressed myself now.

Cossy

GemmaMack

But it’s a great result for Andy Burnham and a huge blow to Reform

I agree there, however, the leadership challenge will divide the party and cause fiscal instability.

His “pledges” are really not a lot different from Starmer, and look what happened to half of those?

What is really like to see is Starmer staying where he is, and Burnham appointed as Chancellor and his deputy.

I don’t like this whole shenanigans of someone stepping down to allow Burnham to stand and then call a leadership contest.

Starmer won’t step down quietly, rightly or wrongly it appears he feels he was given 5 years to do a job and get results and is only being allowed two years.

Frankly it’s a mess.

I’m very very glad that Burnham saw off Reform and his victory does send a clear message about national politics, but, for me, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Only time will tell.

I haven’t liked Burnham’s tactics either. I do think though that in an era where the cult of personality in politics is the vote winner rather than delivering against the manifesto, Burnham stands far more chance of success than Starmer ever could, because fundamentally the electorate as a whole doesn’t like Starmer as a personality, whereas Burnham is a ‘man of the people’. I think Starmer still has a lot to offer, I would like to see him remain as part of the government, he’d make a great foreign secretary.

Well, I’m sad it’s clear me to this, but given that it did, I’m pleased with the result. I think Starmer is a decent man who has been vilified by the media in all their forms from day 1. He didn’t handle comms well, whereas Burnham will. It says a lot about the population that media hostility has affected things so much, particularly given that Starmer said at the start that there would be no quick fixes after 14 years of Tory mismanagement, but that’s the world we’re living in.

I wish Burnham well, and also hope that Starmer is given a role he feels he can accept. I would like to see him as Foreign Secretary, but David Milliband is being mooted for that, it seems. If he can ‘do a Cameron’ and get into the HoL he could be made a Secretary of State. Time will tell, I suppose.

MartavTaurus

VAT on school fees was a proposal that was considered during the Cameron/Clegg coalition government. If I remember, it was Liz Truss who was against it, but it wasn't dismissed out of hand. Then Brexit took over.

Cameron may have considered VAT on schools as a sop to Clegg but it was never a real prospect.

As for a leadership change,
The very last thing the nation needs is a government fighting itself, change quickly, don't hang it out and continue the arguments for another 6 months.

Have a leadership vote now!, either back Starmer or sack him, Burnham has the momentum and if he unites the party that will be a big advance.

It was already a Labour seat so no difference apart from potentially promoting Burnham