49,000 migrants invade Spanish enclave in 24 hours

Shinamae

Here’s something for certain people to get their teeth into….😉

I won't say what I think about people who really believe that Farage can accomplish this.

I'd have Galaxy on my back if I did...

nanna8

I was wondering if Putin even gives a rats about the UK. I think he is all self self self.

He wants to destroy the UK. He funded some of Brexit and there's suspected Russian funding getting to Reform. HIs aim is to destroy the EU, too because the UK and the EU are supporting Ukraine.

There's quite history of Russian interference and incursions into the UK. Remember the murder of a Russian dissident in the UK and the attempted murder of another one?

It does bear wondering about I agree.......

I was wondering if Putin even gives a rats about the UK. I think he is all self self self.

Putin will be laughing up his sleeve!

Operation Fortress- Reform UK's plan to divert the Royal Navy away from tracking Russian vessels particularly around Ireland, damage the reputation of UK on the world stage, break international laws, weaken UK naval defences and lay the RN and UK government open to Corporate Homicide and Manslaughter claims.

Oh dear, Has Nige been telling porkies again? I suppose the use of the word " Operation" appeals somehow.

"Operation" Raise the Colours.
" Operation" Fortress.
"Operation" Big Fat Lies.

Shinamae

Here’s something for certain people to get their teeth into….😉

Same old- same old. Farage called a news conference this morning to rehash/rinse/repeat his idea to intercept small boats that cross the channel- Operation Fortress late this morning.

Operation Fortress will the biggest joint UK military operation with commands from the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, RAF and British Army since world war 2 apparently. The plan would be to intercept any unauthorised boats and detain their occupants before returning them back to France or Belgium under escort on navy vessels. A few small problems though:

1) there is an absolute universal human right, under domestic and international law to claim asylum and the navy is not legally entitled to abrogate that law
2) its simply not possible for the RN towering vessels to directly engage with a typical small vessel/dingy in the channel- either towing them away, pushing them back towards French waters or towing them back to France.
3) That is if the RN caused somebody on a small vessel to die or be injured that is a common law offence given the UK literally is not at war and irregular immigration is a civil issue
4) there are multiple international conventions to save lives at sea - it is hardly likely RN will agree to endanger lives
5) Pushing people and vessels into French waters violates French sovereignty and invites retaliation and resistance. Things could escalate into a mini Cold War between the UK, France and the wider EU. Trade and much else would be endangered and impact the UK economy.

The RN was in charge of just commanding border Force a few years ago, didn't like it and said it made no difference. The RN said it has better things to do, lacks resources and will refuse to endanger the lives of civilians, let alone attack and drown them.

Reform UK would need to remove the UK from all relevant international conventions, amend domestic laws and find RN and RAF commanders actually willing to engage with Operation Fortress. It would seriously damage the UK's international relations.

As Tom Sharpe, retired RN commander, simply put it to the BBC in response UK Border Force is better suited to managing migrant arrivals than the Navy. Warships designed for tasks including anti submarine defences are not best used for ferrying people around. You're better off using a ferry

That's cheered me up no end. Thanks for sharing.

Here’s something for certain people to get their teeth into….😉

Thanks fancythat- I did read Casdon's 11.19 post yesterday also 😊

LemonJam

fancythat

But when the Times calls

"Strict immigration, tradional family values and national sovereignty, now means far right to people??"

then there is a big problem.

Is that what the Times says the far right means to people?

My understanding of Far right:

The term far right describes political views that sit on the extreme right end of the political spectrum, defined primarily by ultranationalism, strict anti-immigration stances, and authoritarian tendencies.

Core Beliefs
Extreme Nationalism Believing that the home nation and its native culture are superior to others, putting national interests above all global or multi-country groups.
Anti-Immigration Strongly opposing new people moving into the country to protect local jobs, native populations, and traditional ways of life.
Authoritarianism Favouring strong, strict leadership and absolute law and order over individual freedoms and open democracy.
Social Hierarchy Believing that society naturally has higher and lower groups based on race, culture, or power.

Common Groups and Types
Radical Populists Political groups that use anger at mainstream leaders to win votes, wanting strict borders and traditional values, but still working within a democratic system.
Extreme Groups Fringe organisations, including neo-Nazis and fascists, that reject democracy completely and sometimes use violence or hate speech to reach their goals. 


Wikipedia also has a good definition.....

See Casdon post yesterday, 11.19am

Crumbly159

Galaxy

If the current governments don't police their borders, address the issues, then the populations will vote for governments that will. That is the choice really.

It's simple to imagine Reform or Restore getting a foothold on power the way things are going at the moment. God forbid.

I know, but as Galaxy says unless the current government does better on the illegal immigration front it could well happen, actually not just that but immigration generally.
Andy Burnham is talking the talk but it must translate into action.

MartavTaurus

I've always considered Liberté, égalité, fraternité all very positive as individual values, but in modern times they can't easily work as a package. For example, total freedom allows some people to get very rich or powerful. This then destroys equality and often leaves others poor and helpless. Yet if you have strict equality, then that implies having rules that take away personal freedoms. It's catch 22.

Fraternity is a tricky concept because it relies on people caring about each other voluntarily, which laws cannot easily force. However, innmy lifetime this is the one I've witnessed most often in France, and elsewhere. It's the best starting point in troubled times.

The French tax system doesn't give much leeway though does it. We know that the gap between rich and poor is far narrower than in the UK. Companies may be private, but they are heavily restricted by state controlled laws. The cost of employing people is very tough on businesses, but ensures contributions for health and pensions. The bureaucratic paperwork for everything is extensive, but you would struggle to fiddle the books.
I agree that people go out of their way to help others, even if people don't want to do what the state require, I think most people know that they should.
Laicité (secularism?) is an interesting one, though I agree with it personally.

fancythat

But when the Times calls

"Strict immigration, tradional family values and national sovereignty, now means far right to people??"

then there is a big problem.

Is that what the Times says the far right means to people?

My understanding of Far right:

The term far right describes political views that sit on the extreme right end of the political spectrum, defined primarily by ultranationalism, strict anti-immigration stances, and authoritarian tendencies.

Core Beliefs
Extreme Nationalism Believing that the home nation and its native culture are superior to others, putting national interests above all global or multi-country groups.
Anti-Immigration Strongly opposing new people moving into the country to protect local jobs, native populations, and traditional ways of life.
Authoritarianism Favouring strong, strict leadership and absolute law and order over individual freedoms and open democracy.
Social Hierarchy Believing that society naturally has higher and lower groups based on race, culture, or power.

Common Groups and Types
Radical Populists Political groups that use anger at mainstream leaders to win votes, wanting strict borders and traditional values, but still working within a democratic system.
Extreme Groups Fringe organisations, including neo-Nazis and fascists, that reject democracy completely and sometimes use violence or hate speech to reach their goals. 


Wikipedia also has a good definition.....

I've always considered Liberté, égalité, fraternité all very positive as individual values, but in modern times they can't easily work as a package. For example, total freedom allows some people to get very rich or powerful. This then destroys equality and often leaves others poor and helpless. Yet if you have strict equality, then that implies having rules that take away personal freedoms. It's catch 22.

Fraternity is a tricky concept because it relies on people caring about each other voluntarily, which laws cannot easily force. However, innmy lifetime this is the one I've witnessed most often in France, and elsewhere. It's the best starting point in troubled times.

I adore France by the way

Well I am guessing that France has similar complexities relating to those words than anywhere does, how do you achieve equality, how do you balance liberty with the responsibilities of society. So for example many people would think for example that the restriction of religious symbols in aspects of public life wasn't liberty ( I am.not sure I would agree with those views but it is certainly a complex issue).

Galaxy

If the current governments don't police their borders, address the issues, then the populations will vote for governments that will. That is the choice really.

It's simple to imagine Reform or Restore getting a foothold on power the way things are going at the moment. God forbid.

sazz1

Is the left really left though? Or just pretending to be?
I'm reading about many people in one area, many of whom marched previously in defense of immigrants and welcomed them. Then the 'boat people' started being put into accommodation in their area. Mass protests against it from the formerly welcoming population followed. Same in one village where asylum seekers were being transferred to an ex army barracks. There many villagers were going to leave the UK! It's definitely a 'not in my back yard' but welcome somewhere else.
Spain is deporting most of the Moroccans now and many have left voluntarily. They have an inflatable barrier installed across the coastline to stop boats, jet skies etc. IMO we should have the same, and do the same
If you're defending the illegal immigrants think if you would really welcome them en mass in your street or nearby area.

That’s what I think ‘ all welcome’, ‘just don’t put them in my back yard’ mentality 🙄

Galaxy

I am afraid I think things are much more complicated that that Mamie.

Well obviously some people and institutions are always going to fail, but I would say that living in France you can see in everyday life how those values underpin the working of the Republic.
When my husband was seriously ill, it was the Maison de Solidarité that gave us practical support.
Working in schools, you could see how the values are engrained from the earliest years.
You may regard it as simplistic, but what would you put in its place?

But when the Times calls

"Strict immigration, tradional family values and national sovereignty, now means far right to people??"

then there is a big problem.

Exactly that Fancythat, prove you can support yourselves.

Nothing wrong with being left wing, right wing or centrist.

It's far right wing opinions and actions that are worrying and pose a risk- as identified by both M15 and the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation equivalent.

I am afraid I think things are much more complicated that that Mamie.

Galaxy

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being right wing.

I am sure you will agree that there is nothing wrong with being Left Wing either.
Having lived in France for 20 years (now back in England), I cannot express my view of how to behave as a responsible citizen better than Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.