Today the High Court has agreed that children can be given puberty blockers.

Luckygirl3

butterandjam

Perhaps some posters here, have confused puberty blockers, with gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT). GHAT is not part of this trial.

<https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/whats-the-difference-between-puberty-blockers-and-hrt-for-trans-teens>

You are right to draw attention to that distinction. But we need to be aware that 96-98% of children who take puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormone treatment. So starting on this road is in the main a no-going-back scenario, something that a child of 11 cannot possibly understand or be able to weigh up the implications of: social, reproductive, health etc.

Puberty blockers are the nursery slopes of a whole life.

It remains the case that no-one really knows the long term effects of puberty blockers for whatever reason they are taken.

No child should be embarking on this without strenuous efforts to first address the reasons behind their gender dysphoria and to tackle those.

This stands out for me (from AI):
*Transgender individuals experience significantly higher rates of suicidal ideation and suicide attempts compared to the cisgender population. Research indicates that roughly 32% to 50% of transgender people attempt suicide at some point in their lives, with rates being particularly elevated among transgender youth and young adults.*

Puberty blocking IS reversible. Stop taking it, and puberty commences..

A[[ it does is provide a breathing space for a child to consider their identity.

" 96-98% of children who take puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormone treatmentlives".

A misleading extrapolation from a very limited study conducted at the Tavistock.

The study began in 2011 and enrolled 44 children aged between 12 and 15 over the following three years. The study had no control group - with children who did not take puberty blockers - to enable the researchers to compare results with.

Mollygo 👏

I fear the harm we are subjecting children to by the need to see gender dysphoria as simply a belief they were born in the wrong body. Of course I believe people who believe they were born in the wrong body, have always been with us. I struggle to accept that because it’s now recognised, we have large numbers of children who are convinced thst all their anxieties and uncertainties would disappear if their crushing difficulties were solved by preventing puberty and a path of surgical reconstruction,
Imo adolescence is even more challenging now than in the late fifties, early sixties when I experienced it. Can it be right to impose on our children the belief changing gender is possible and healthy? Especially when we know a large prooortion of these children’s are on the ASD spectrum

paddyann54

There has been trans people around for decades,though not so visible or talked about.
The treatment would have been through private clinics and therefor out of most peoples reach .
The vast majority of trans people ..including the 7 I know just want to get on with their lives .They didn,t want the bad publicity that surrounds them due to a very very small minority of of vocal folk who jumped on a bandwagon..like JK Rowling who like many folk with millions believe that validated their opinions….because they can afford the legal fees to push their point.
I,d bet that many on here have passed a trans woman in a public loo and didn,t know it.Its horrible to see the bile aimed at people who believe they were born in the wrong
My trans friends …and they are not a group,they are from different areas of the country and separate parts of my life and none have ever met…deserve to be left alone in peace with the families they have.There are a lot worse things on earth than trans people.They have had a hard route to get where they are it wasn’t done on a whim

Though what you say is always trotted out in defence of trans, parts of your statement may well be true. e.g.
There has been trans people around for decades, though not so visible or talked about.
They deserve to be left alone and in peace

So reasonable questions would be
What did some trans do to make themselves visible?
What actions caused and continue to cause the rise in bad publicity?

Who did they harm/upset/ treat wrongly, which made them visible?

Was it only TW (males) or did TM (females) cause the issues too?
I only have one example of a TB using her delusion to bully other girls, ganging up on those who wouldn’t join her gang and demanding that staff punish girls who didn’t use her (frequently changed) pronouns. You may have others.
It drove some of those she attacked almost to suicide and certainly to self harm.

How would you propose to put an end to the trans actions which give rise to the bad publicity, paddyann54?
e.g. the cheating in sport
e.g. the refusal to let women (AHF) have the right to male- free private spaces
etc.
e.g. the death threats, the cancelling aimed at those who want to protect women (AHF) from harmful men, however they’re dressed and whatever they’re pretending to be.

Since these actions continue to harm both trans and women (AHF) why would you blame JKR for wanting to protect women (AHF)?
That implies that you think the TW should be allowed whatever they want, at whatever cost to the women (AHF).

butterandjam

Perhaps some posters here, have confused puberty blockers, with gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT). GHAT is not part of this trial.

<https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/whats-the-difference-between-puberty-blockers-and-hrt-for-trans-teens>

You are right to draw attention to that distinction. But we need to be aware that 96-98% of children who take puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormone treatment. So starting on this road is in the main a no-going-back scenario, something that a child of 11 cannot possibly understand or be able to weigh up the implications of: social, reproductive, health etc.

Puberty blockers are the nursery slopes of a whole life.

It remains the case that no-one really knows the long term effects of puberty blockers for whatever reason they are taken.

No child should be embarking on this without strenuous efforts to first address the reasons behind their gender dysphoria and to tackle those.

This stands out for me (from AI):
Transgender individuals experience significantly higher rates of suicidal ideation and suicide attempts compared to the cisgender population. Research indicates that roughly 32% to 50% of transgender people attempt suicide at some point in their lives, with rates being particularly elevated among transgender youth and young adults.

An aside but I recall how work to support children, mostly girls, with eating disorders changed as more was learned.

I heard Dr Cass interviewed on the six pm news. Shes very knowledgable on this area, I believe her approach is ethical. She highlighted the problems with Gt Ormond street in her report. She stated this research is needed and talked at length about the safeguarding that will be rigorous

I haven’t read your link butterandjam, will do so.

Perhaps some posters here, have confused puberty blockers, with gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT). GHAT is not part of this trial.

<https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/whats-the-difference-between-puberty-blockers-and-hrt-for-trans-teens>

State approved child abuse
I've heard it all now.

But not as a drug intended to prevent normal development.

In use as a drug that restores normal development.

There is a massive moral and clinical difference.

The moral difference is in debate.

The clinical difference has not been tested as in normal protocols and is unknown. It has moved straight to experimentation on children.

A unique exception has been made and we have no prior laboratory testing on which to base this trial.

I think that would be terrifying for any drug to be tested in that way and don’t understand why anyone would promote or allow that to happen.

Luckygirl3

*Any trial program is going to be dealing with parents who have been fully informed about the potential risk,*
I think the point here is that no-one knows the risks .... hence the trial.

Puberty blockers have been in use for a long time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker

Doodledog

Me too, Grannygravy.

I also think, as you say, Luckygirl, that being gay has nothing to do with trans issues. It's tiresome to keep seeing them conflated.

I was willing to think about my misunderstanding of your earlier post, as it could be that young people feeling 'different' need to have something on which to pin their feelings, and trans lobbyists encouraged the 'wrong body' narrative. I'm still happy to consider it, actually - it would make a certain amount of sense, although it wouldn't alter my views about children being given puberty blockers.

paddyann We always hear about how transpeople have been around for centuries, and about those who just want to live quiet lives, but the point is that those people are not the ones pushing for puberty blockers or the 'right' to push into female spaces, are they?

It is that trespass that is the issue. That and the mangling of the language to remove the very words we have used for centuries to describe women, mothers, female 'things' of all descriptions. Without those words we disappear, as there is no way of knowing whether the 'women' being described are actual women or men who think they know what being a woman feels like, and choose to describe themselves as one of us.

Men who say they are women (and vice versa) are simply that, and if they 'just live their lives' I have no problem with that. If they want to lurk in female showers, or insist on trying on dresses in front of teenage girls I have do a problem - just as I have a problem with those who force themselves onto female shortlists and corrupt sex-based research that aims to show how policies impact on women and men separately. And I definitely have a problem with those who want to normalise the idea that we can change sex - that is physically impossible, regardless of the 'feelings' of a small group. For children to be sacrificed on that alter is disgraceful.

Thanks Doodledog and Luckygirl. (And others)

I recall some time ago, those of us who expressed similar points of view being told that fifty years ago we would have been homophobic.

It’s a relief that our views on sex and gender are now absorbed into law. Trans activists have done nothing to improve life for women or trans people. It seems beyond dispute that these aggressive individuals (men) are displaying combative, threatening abuse to women

Me too, Grannygravy.

I also think, as you say, Luckygirl, that being gay has nothing to do with trans issues. It's tiresome to keep seeing them conflated.

I was willing to think about my misunderstanding of your earlier post, as it could be that young people feeling 'different' need to have something on which to pin their feelings, and trans lobbyists encouraged the 'wrong body' narrative. I'm still happy to consider it, actually - it would make a certain amount of sense, although it wouldn't alter my views about children being given puberty blockers.

paddyann We always hear about how transpeople have been around for centuries, and about those who just want to live quiet lives, but the point is that those people are not the ones pushing for puberty blockers or the 'right' to push into female spaces, are they?

It is that trespass that is the issue. That and the mangling of the language to remove the very words we have used for centuries to describe women, mothers, female 'things' of all descriptions. Without those words we disappear, as there is no way of knowing whether the 'women' being described are actual women or men who think they know what being a woman feels like, and choose to describe themselves as one of us.

Men who say they are women (and vice versa) are simply that, and if they 'just live their lives' I have no problem with that. If they want to lurk in female showers, or insist on trying on dresses in front of teenage girls I have do a problem - just as I have a problem with those who force themselves onto female shortlists and corrupt sex-based research that aims to show how policies impact on women and men separately. And I definitely have a problem with those who want to normalise the idea that we can change sex - that is physically impossible, regardless of the 'feelings' of a small group. For children to be sacrificed on that alter is disgraceful.

Lathyrus3

JK Rowling stance has always been that women -especially those who have suffered violence from men- should be able to access safe places where men are not allowed to force themselves upon women.

I can’t see how anyone could possibly object to that.

You have to be suspicious of anyone who does object and insists men should have rights to dominate and force women in order to fulfill their own desires.

Totally agree 👍

I find the idea repellent, and my instinct is to totally reject it, but in truth, my medical, psychological knowledge is not sufficient to give a worthwhile opinion.

JK Rowling stance has always been that women -especially those who have suffered violence from men- should be able to access safe places where men are not allowed to force themselves upon women.

I can’t see how anyone could possibly object to that.

You have to be suspicious of anyone who does object and insists men should have rights to dominate and force women in order to fulfill their own desires.

The problem is none if it is true. It isn't bile to say you cant change sex. Those who have pretended to people that it is possible have done them a great disservice.

I think what I am saying is that being gay is simply who a person is and where their attractions lie, and that will be how they live their life. Being trans is in a different league I feel as it is about changing who a person is and surgically or chemically turning them into something else entirely.

The feelings of disconnect that trans children have is not related to their nature as such but rather to their dysmorphia problems, often as part of ASD. So to me it feels more like a medical condition rather than one part of the normal sexual spectrum, which is what trans activists are pressing for it to be seen as. They would like to see it as akin to the situaiotn that gays found themselves in for so long and want attitudes to change similarly, but I see the two situations as entirely different.

I think that two things have got tangled up: gay inclinations as part of a normal spectrum and trans desires as a medical condition.

There has been trans people around for decades,though not so visible or talked about.
The treatment would have been through private clinics and therefor out of most peoples reach .
The vast majority of trans people ..including the 7 I know just want to get on with their lives .They didn,t want the bad publicity that surrounds them due to a very very small minority of of vocal folk who jumped on a bandwagon..like JK Rowling who like many folk with millions believe that validated their opinions….because they can afford the legal fees to push their point.
I,d bet that many on here have passed a trans woman in a public loo and didn,t know it.Its horrible to see the bile aimed at people who believe they were born in the wrong
My trans friends …and they are not a group,they are from different areas of the country and separate parts of my life and none have ever met…deserve to be left alone in peace with the families they have.There are a lot worse things on earth than trans people.They have had a hard route to get where they are it wasn’t done on a whim

At one time being gay was seen as an aberration and things have rightly moved on from that. But this does not involve medication or surgery - it is simply who a person is.
This is interesting, if I've understood you correctly. Are you saying that being gay is now accepted, so is no longer something 'different' enough for children who feel that they don't fit in, so they feel that being trans will better explain their feelings of disconnect?

One cannot overestimate the distress to families when a child is in this state, so I can understand why parents sometimes feel desperate. But it is the job of the health services to address the problem with proper support (often ASD related) rather than to buy in to the child's mental health problem by affirming its validity with drugs that can cause unknown life long changes.

One big problem is that the trans lobby has been so vocal (on the coattails of of the gay lobby) and has convinced politicians and others in the public eye that denying their rights is illegal and unacceptable so no-one dares speak out. This distorts rational judgement about the reality that children are going to be medically experimented on on the back of this. It also means that children who are unsettled about their sexuality, particularly those with ASD, have a much-trumpeted peg to hang their unhappiness on, even though that does not solve their problems.

The underfunding of mental health support services for children and young people with ASD and other conditions is part of the problem because parents feel desperate with nowhere to turn. But it is not the whole story as this transgender trend is international and presumably some of these countries have better provision than ours.

At one time being gay was seen as an aberration and things have rightly moved on from that. But this does not involve medication or surgery - it is simply who a person is.

Who makes up the High Court because their decisions are appalling. It is completely against nature.
How can any parent agree to this? It’s child abuse! Your brain is not fully developed until 25 so nothing should be done before that however.
Cancer drugs used on children are to save lives. Completely different.

That is child abuse . Disgusting decision by the court. I wouldn’t refer to it as ‘high’, more lowlife. A pity the judges can’t be sued by the public.

Not treating cancer in children with drugs that are known to have negative side effects, will result in death. Not prescribing puberty blockers long term to a child who questions their identity will not result in death. I thought it had been established that going through puberty was actually the 'cure' for the vast majority of these distressed children, often resulting in a child who would be homosexual, a perfectly normal condition.

Galaxy That is why it is a difficult belief system to move on from, the parents are never going to be able to admit that it was a mistake, how can they?
Galaxy is absolutely correct, how could any parent admit they had consented to the irreparable harm done to their own child? You'd have to keep persuading yourself it was the right course of action and keep perpetuating the lies or you'd risk your own sanity, such as it is.

Puberty blockers have been laboratory tested as blockers for premature puberty to enable a child to experience normal development on a par with their peers.

They have not yet been laboratory tested as a preventative of normal development as given to trans children. Nobody knows what the consequences of this use will be because it has not been tested according to normal protocols but has gone straight to testing on humans.

I believe this to be a gross error. Puberty blockers used in this way should undergo all the normal protocols that every other approved drug has had to undergo.

To me this is just common sense. If the protocols are necessary, they are necessary. It can be in nobody’s interest to skip a whole range of safety protocols for the sake of appeasement.

Don’t you think butterandjam it would be better to run the laboratory tests before undertaking human trials?

LemonJam

butterandjam

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Madness in my opinion. Wilful damage to children.
I’d call it abuse to be honest.

Its a go ahead for an NHS TRIAL, on a restricted group of patients.

Exactly butterandjam and in line with the Cass review specific recommendations. The purpose of the trial evidently is to scientifically find out whether puberty blockers are safe and effective.

And if deemed ‘not safe’?
Well sorry for your kids who took part.

Ye gods.