Alternatives to prison?

Strewth - prison hulks ? Now I’ve heard it all .Back to the 18th century. Please, no transportation!

Huge staffing issues, as in other public services, austerity led to experienced prison officers, senior managers in. Social workers all being made redundant. It left yiung inexperienced people in charge before they developed necessary skills and experience.

Short term savings and awful long term consequences

Robin202

I think they should put decommissioned cruise ships to use as prison ships and moor them somewhere remote, away from civilisation.

Where will the prison officers come from? I thought they had a staffing problem.

Aveline, we have evidence that prisoners contained in conditions some see as ‘soft’ behave better in hmp. If properly supported on release, they’re less likely to reoffend

I think they should put decommissioned cruise ships to use as prison ships and moor them somewhere remote, away from civilisation.

So we know what causes the problem, how to address it though? We can't rewind current criminal's lives.

Iam64 22:42

I couldn’t agree more.

As “bizarre” and “strange” as it might seem to some, normally these kids slipping through the system have barely been in formal education and as you say, any difficulties in primary school, where most of us master reading, writing and ‘rithmatic, were not picked up.

When at the job centre, the number of youngsters with no, or very poor literally, many male, was astounding, luckily, it was picked up fairly quickly under the old systems as we made people fill in paper forms, with the advent of everything digital in the jobcentre, it’s much much harder, as said youngsters simply get someone to complete everything necessary online for them! One of their more literate mates normally.

It’s a huge problem as you cannot even (legally) even work as a labourer, on sites, without the requisite health and safety cards, which the jobcentre is happy to fund, but which require passing a digital test, which requires you to be able to read to even complete, let alone pass.

All of these things are so clearly linked, chaotic families, children slipping through the education system, mental health conditions, learning difficulties, being in care, being vulnerable, getting involved in petty crime, possibly drugs, caught more than once, imprisoned, no proper help/treatment/rehabilitation.

There we have it! 😕😕

Charleygirl5

I am unsure how a child can go through years of so called education and still be unable to read and write. Is this not noticed in school.

I know little of prisons but what I have read, some have more electronic items than I do. I would restrict TV viewing, but how one stops drugs being brought in is beyond me.

In London so many tubes are removed from service because of graffiti. If that person was caught, he or she would be removing it but again it has to be supervised.

I would do well, having loved my years at boarding school so used to be regimented, even now I could cope with food at regular times, warmth and hopefully my own cell.

I don't know what happens when they are discharged, probably not much. Compulsory army training for females as well as males would help, but they must be taught to read and write and that takes time, money and assistance. Difficult if they are of low intelligence.

Shedloads of money for starters.

Our local local authority college provides education and support for students failed by the education system. Many of them weren’t diagnosed as neuro diverse at primary or high school. Our education system has become so focussed on sats and academic work, it’s possible for their particular needs to not be recognised, never mind met

Students are supported to achieve gcse maths and English to statge four, the expected level, it can take four years and needs dedicated staff who support social as well as academic needs. Inevitably, many students have experienced neglect, abuse, hunger, all kinds of deprivation. Safeguarding goal posts get wider as resources become limited

To reduce our prison population look at LemonJam’s post - we need early years education supported by family centres , focus on prevention.

Prisons are not places where prisoners have more electronic items than you do Charleygirl. They’re tough places, with many prisoners confined to cells for long periods. Opportunities to improve literacy and numeracy increasingly rare. I’ve been shown achievement certificates from prisoners, who are proud they e attended and worked hard in courses. These men would benefit from structured work and educational opportunities. Stuck in a cell twenty four hours little wonder substance abuse is rife.

LemonJam

Having been involved in three yearly Health Needs assessment of the prsioners in the prisons in my county in a past job- there was solid evidence that large numbers had backgrounds as a child of poverty, infrequent school attendance, one of more parents who had been offenders and/or in prison custody, unstable housing and frequent moves, infrequent child health engagement, poor dental health etc. Quite simply falling through so many safety nets.

The majority had alcohol or drug decency, poor reading and writing skills, unstable relationships, unstable housing, frequent episodes of unemployment, not registered with a GP, poor dental and ocular health etc.

So several strands for me:

1) a country that tries to eradicate/reduce child poverty and inequalities and supports parents who may struggle.

2) Address health inequality whilst offenders in prison ( we negotiated contracts to bring dentists, opticians and out patient interventions into the prisons) Reading and writing classes. Teach them what their children might be studying so they can engage with their children in frequent family visits. Good quality Drug and Alcohol programmes. Money management, skills development etc.

3) Focus on rehabilitation- being in custody is the punishment.

4) Invest, build and extend Probation Service and offender programmes in the community.

Yes! This!

Just would add to this reparation, on the grounds that if the crime was criminal damage, theft, fraud etc towards individuals and/or companies, thhose committing these crimes should do something, a big something, to “repair” the crime and to learn just a bit about how that crime affected those people who are victims.

Youth offending, when they existed in force and throughout the country did this as a first step to get the offending youth back on track and to really understand how crime actually impacts victims, the damage caused to the person.

Many criminals never “meet” their victims and see their crimes as somehow “faceless”

Nanny27

I’ve always thought that fraud, theft and other crimes of dishonesty should result in the criminal repaying exactly double the amount to the victim. No ifs or buts. No being let off halfway through repayment or paying silly amounts each week. Children should be protected but otherwise if the defendant goes hungry or loses their home so be it. No expense to the public purse and the victim is properly compensated.

...otherwise if the defendant goes hungry or loses their home so be it. No expense to the public purse and the victim is properly compensated.

If such an individual under your scheme were to lose their home, they'd either end up living on the street - in which case it's doubtful they'd be able to repay anything, or they'd end up in emergency accommodation, depending on their status, and the state would be paying for them.

Also, if the fraudster had limited skills and was in a low-paying job, it simply might not be possible to pay back "double", if that amount meant them losing all their income - in which case, they'd end up in the situation as mentioned above!

This could only work if said individual was already quite wealthy to begin with - that's probably why people pay back "silly amounts"...

Nearly 20 years on from 2007 Norway is still coping, is still one of the safest countries in the world albeit like every other country in the world it's not rosy.

I agree it will be interesting to see how Norway continues to cope with the ever shifting crime dynamic- particularly growing cybercrime which is affecting every country in the world- from any country in the world.

It is the case though that Norway does not have prisons and a criminal justice system heading for a state of collapse.

LemonJam

The reason is that Norway’s prisons work . In the 1990s, the country suffered a dire 70% recidivism rate. It examined evidence and opted for drastic reform. This tied new “correction centres” to local communities, relating rehabilitation to local jobs and family ties. Prisoners were treated with dignity.

I was working in Norway around this time. A Norwegian colleague had been to one of these centres. His offences, though dangerous, were not malicious. The root of his problem was the break-up of his marriage and the alienation from his children - all these issues were addressed, - and that's the point.

Also, it's worth noting that the development of traditional Norwegian work culture generally differs from ours somewhat in that a worker's personal life is not separate from their professional 'value'.

Norwegian companies emphasise something known as trivsel - well-being and contentment in the workplace. There is usually no rigid hierarchy, managers and level-entry staff mingle on equal terms, everyone is addressed by their first names.

Norway invests in work-life balance - and this is seen as an investment, and not a burden. This culture also has a positive effect on the rehabilitation of individuals, like my ex-colleague - my friend's daughter lost her job when she was sentenced, this probably would not have happened over there.

Unfortunately, since the mid 2000s there has been a noticeable increase in city-centre crime, particularly at night and weekends. According to a recent report I read, although this is one of the safest countries in the world, there has been a well-documented increase in specific types of city-centre crime, driven primarily by shifts in youth dynamics and a rising tide of cross-border organised crime. The biggest change since 2007 is not a rise in random, general violence, but rather a distinct, professionalised evolution in organised crime."

So it's not all rosy over there. It remains to be seen how the Norwegian justice system will operate under these shifting dynamics...

I am unsure how a child can go through years of so called education and still be unable to read and write. Is this not noticed in school.

I know little of prisons but what I have read, some have more electronic items than I do. I would restrict TV viewing, but how one stops drugs being brought in is beyond me.

In London so many tubes are removed from service because of graffiti. If that person was caught, he or she would be removing it but again it has to be supervised.

I would do well, having loved my years at boarding school so used to be regimented, even now I could cope with food at regular times, warmth and hopefully my own cell.

I don't know what happens when they are discharged, probably not much. Compulsory army training for females as well as males would help, but they must be taught to read and write and that takes time, money and assistance. Difficult if they are of low intelligence.

Shedloads of money for starters.

An interesting perspective from Simon Jenkins (ex editor of The Times now writes articles for The Guardian) :

“……The facts cannot be repeated too often. England and Wales’s penal policy is the most backward in western Europe. They imprison roughly twice the proportion of the population as Germany, and three times as many as Italy and Spain. Prisoner numbers in England and Wales have doubled in 30 years.

In 2024, a quarter of prisoners in England and Wales were having to share cells designed for one person. Two-thirds were estimated to spend most of their days in their cells with little to occupy them, fuelling reports from prisoners of mental health problems and self-harm. In the 21st century, this is indefensibly primitive.

Prisoners are some of the nation’s most assiduous consumers of drugs. About 40% of prisoners in England and Wales say it is easy to access drugs while inside, cells are simply awash in illegal substances. As for training and rehabilitation to prepare for release, curbed budgets and staff shortages have seen them collapsing.

Half of short-term prisoners reoffend as a result. Rehabilitation – the one sure way to cut reoffending – is a farce. Community sentences such as Timpson’s favoured intensive supervision courts offer an alternative but are still in their infancy.

As for England and Wales’s fixation with incarcerating women, in December 2024, a quarter of those in prison were on remand, awaiting what might not have been imprisonment at all. Most need help, not separation from their families and loved ones, with many said to be victims of worse crimes than they commit. The Prison Reform Trust has pleaded for sentences to take account of family stability, but to no effect. Even Reform UK’s Colin Sutton, the new police and crime commissioner for Norfolk, has said most women in custody should be released.

To allow prisons policy to be led by public opinion is absurd. It should be led by evidence of what works . Many non-violent prisoners will be drug and alcohol addicts chronically in need of effective treatment in the community. There are also the kind of prisoners I used to visit prisons in the London area. They are victims of family or personal breakdown, poverty, homelessness or sheer misfortune. Above all they needed hostels and help.

Nothing more infuriates the pro-prisons lobby than mention of Norway. The reason is that Norway’s prisons work . In the 1990s, the country suffered a dire 70% recidivism rate. It examined evidence and opted for drastic reform. This tied new “correction centres” to local communities, relating rehabilitation to local jobs and family ties. Prisoners were treated with dignity. Reoffending plummeted and Norway’s prison population has been drastically reduced”.

The 'short, sharp shock' introduced by Wm Whitelaw was a complete failure and was ditched.

I think sentencing is just so so difficult. There are just so many variables. As you say fines impact people differently - I believe some countries make them income related. But I also think that our attitudes towards fraud can be a bit cavalier. Some types of fraud ruin peoples lives - for example if their life’s savings or pension funds are taken. Often there’s no redress for the victims - the money has disappeared. There can also be fraud from someone close to you that can leave you unable to trust people again or be afraid to ask for help. I’m not saying these matter more than violence or breaking into someone’s home, or sexual abuse but that we shouldn’t underestimate the possible life changing impact of being the victim of fraud. And then there’s (imo) far too many light sentences for certain driving offences which have taken or ruined lives. It’s all really really complicated. But I think it’s almost impossible to have a real debate about crime and punishment and the CJS in general because of the inevitable emotional aspects that skew the debate.

I quite often watch programmes like Police Interceptors etc. They do a great job arresting dangerous drivers, potential killers, but I think it must be really dispiriting to the police when serious offenders seem to go almost unpunished.

That’s not to say that prison is necessarily the most appropriate punishment.

Fines affect different people differently.
Unmanageable for some, peanuts for others.

Locking up serious fraudsters seems a waste of space. Surely more of those could be released?
As said above, the humiliation of community service is sufficient for others.

Sentences for the most serious crimes are already too short. Some should never be released.

Cabbie21

Given that the jails are full, what alternative effective punishments can be used?

Fines, community service and tagging are all very well but I am not sure they act as deterrents.

Is prison the right place for fraud, corporate manslaughter or other major but non violent crimes?

To return to Cabbie21's original post -

Fines, community service and tagging are all very well but I am not sure they act as deterrents.

It's a reasonable question. I suspect it does in some cases, but not in others.

In my friend's daughter's case (a non-violent crime), it most certainly would - the arrest, charge, and court-appearance, to a large extent was in fact a sufficient deterrent. Knowing the young woman personally I believe the shame, embarrassment and humiliation of community service (which she would've done diligently) would guarantee it.

Maybe the question of whether or not fines and community service work depends very much on the character of the criminal?

I'm not sure the young men who killed PC Harper would in any way be whipped into shape by such an option.

The wider question though is, why are our prisons so full, and is the judicial system and process itself, including sentencing, in need of a complete overhaul?

IMO, you cannot have a properly functioning system on-the-cheap, Austerity and budget-cuts have most certainly had a devastating effect on it.

I understand that the early-release programme is not being implemented on a case-by-case basis, but if the government do not intervene in the case of PC Harper's killers, they will seriously undermine their credibility. The image of those two young men grinning at the photographers as they left court is not one that the public will shrug-off... and what message does it send to those men and women who are considering a career in the police force?

I’ve always thought that fraud, theft and other crimes of dishonesty should result in the criminal repaying exactly double the amount to the victim. No ifs or buts. No being let off halfway through repayment or paying silly amounts each week. Children should be protected but otherwise if the defendant goes hungry or loses their home so be it. No expense to the public purse and the victim is properly compensated.

theworriedwell

missdeke

Deport every non native convicted criminal. If they weren't born here, they can't stay here.

So no punishment, just a free trip home. Not sure the victims of crime would feel it's justice.

If I was the victim of such a crime, I'd prefer to know that they had been removed from the country. Going back may well be punishment enough.

Crikey indeed. Our CJS is in a mess after underfunding and government choosing short term financial gain to effective public services,

But we aren’t in such a mess that we abandon trials

missdeke

Deport every non native convicted criminal. If they weren't born here, they can't stay here.

So no punishment, just a free trip home. Not sure the victims of crime would feel it's justice.

Cabbie21

All those requirements need people to provide and oversee them. There seems to be a shortage of such people, or more likely a lack of funding for that sector.

I know a retired police officer who did it. Eight hours on a Saturday. She said it was a decent part time job. I think it was run by the probation service. I've seen groups working round here in their bright tabards litter picking and stuff like that. Apparently it is up to 400 hours so that would be every Saturday for a year. If they have a job as well it's a big chunk of your week. Must be cheaper than having them in prison, no food,no accommodation, one member of staff supervising 8 or nine of them.

Crikey.

The judicial system needs overhauling.
Ridiculous that in cases where there is undisputable evidence (,eg. Cctv) criminals should have to wait to be tried and sentenced. Eg Ann Widdicombes killer. Straight to prison for life. No need for a trial.