Why the moral panic?

dayvidg Thu 13-Aug-26 14:41:30

And what happened to the existing population when the Vikings arrived?

That's a fascinating question. The history of Britain stretches back hundreds of thousands of years, with many waves of people arriving, mixing. So who was "before the Vikings, and before those before the Vikings"?

In broad order before and after the Vikings.

1. Early human species
2. Neanderthals
3. Mesolithic hunter-gatherers
4. Neolithic farmers
5. Bell Beaker/Bronze Age migrants
6. Iron Age Celtic tribes
7. Romans
8. Anglo-Saxons
9. Vikings
10. Normans

Each group disrupted the previous group to some extent but also gave new skills, mew perspectives, etc. It's also important to note that these groups didn't simply wipe each other out. In many cases they mixed with existing populations. Modern people in the UK typically have ancestry from several of these waves, with proportions varying by region. For example, Welsh populations often retain more ancestry linked to earlier Britons, eastern England tends to show more Anglo-Saxon ancestry, and areas such as Orkney and Shetland have particularly strong Norse (Viking) ancestry.

There is a quote, from 1905, by George Sayayana,

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

Galaxy

If countries are to be held accountable for their past then we should probably immediately put a stop to German immigrants then ( I am one) after all look what they did in their country, or of course immigrants from Afghanistan (look what has happened to the women of their country), or us it only Britain that must be accountable for its past.

No, we all need to move on, the past is the past, we should learn from our past history, remember it but acknowledge that things have changed and we’ve moved on

Discussion benefits, when we share verified facts and figures.
Unfortunately, provoking rage and fear works better with some political Parties, to manufacture support.
This method has been used many times.

If countries are to be held accountable for their past then we should probably immediately put a stop to German immigrants then ( I am one) after all look what they did in their country, or of course immigrants from Afghanistan (look what has happened to the women of their country), or us it only Britain that must be accountable for its past.

dayvidg

BlueBelle

I agree with everything you said WW2
I wouldn’t even be here if the Vikings in small boats hadn’t infiltrated our shores
Isn’t it bxxxdy wonderful that Brits and Europeans can take every country from their natives and be looked upon as great ……blooming ironic isn’t it

And what happened to the existing population when the Vikings arrived?

You are a master of satire dayvidg! 😉

Aveline

The arrival of Polish workers was a terrific benefit to us at least locally. They all seemed so good at their jobs and so hard working. I was sorry when so many of them left.

Same here. Being an agricultural area we had large numbers of Poles, Czechs, Lithuanians and other East European arriving here about 15 -20 years ago. They all worked on the land and I used to see them in the Post Office regularly sending money back to their families.

Many of them were heavy drinkers though and the different nationalities didn’t always get on so when they weren’t working they used to congregate outside their accommodation and often there would be fights. It took the Police and Gangmasters to explain that they were in a different country where this was not acceptable. As their countries prospered they all went home after a few years. I am still in touch with our young Czech neighbours who had two children while they lived here. They are now 14 and 15.

“dayvidg

BlueBelle
I agree with everything you said WW2
I wouldn’t even be here if the Vikings in small boats hadn’t infiltrated our shores
Isn’t it bxxxdy wonderful that Brits and Europeans can take every country from their natives and be looked upon as great ……blooming ironic isn’t it
And what happened to the existing population when the Vikings arrived?“

Pretty much the same thing I would imagine, as happened to those very many countries we invaded in the name of The Empire! Mix of murdered, enslaved or captured, then forced to adopt our faith and language.

Luckily, most of us have moved on since then.

After all, it was so long ago, though way way after the vikings, that we (here in the UK) happily shipped all our “villains” off to Australia!

Aveline

The arrival of Polish workers was a terrific benefit to us at least locally. They all seemed so good at their jobs and so hard working. I was sorry when so many of them left.

👏👏👏👏👏👏

BlueBelle

I agree with everything you said WW2
I wouldn’t even be here if the Vikings in small boats hadn’t infiltrated our shores
Isn’t it bxxxdy wonderful that Brits and Europeans can take every country from their natives and be looked upon as great ……blooming ironic isn’t it

And what happened to the existing population when the Vikings arrived?

The small boat migrants are a very small proportion of the total. The impact on housing and services is almist entirely due to immigrants with work visas, people who are essential to a UK with a falling population of young workers. Successive governments - especially the recent disastrous Tory one including several useless PMs - failed to act. The boats are used by politicians as a diversion from their failure.

I totally agree. I vape and get mine from a well established chain Mirage where they wouldn't dream of breaking the law and give responsible advice.

Ditto barbers. some great shops - great. cuts, good value, mixed customers. We didn't grumble about Indian restaurants, why grumble because Turkish blokes specialise?

Simple, prosecute criminality. Report shops that sell to youngsters.

Oh, and btw, pub life in some parts of any town have been at the heart of under the counter/black market stuff since time immemorial. ditto friendship/area networks with a plus plus
why not call them out as well?

I'm being "classist"?

No way. Look at fraudulent or borderline money advice given to the more wealthy by private individuals "helping out"

You think white middle class is free of illegal activities?

DaisyAnneReturns asylum seekers (who have not got permission to work) have been in recent months found working as food delivery drivers, working in nail bars, vape shops and many other businesses.

BBC and other main stream organisations have made documentaries on the above.

In our High Street, we have had Border Force raids and people removed from Indian (Bangladeshi) and Turkish Restaurants along with two nail bars.

Chestnut

Whitewakemark2 Thread after thread is started with the assertion that immigrants are arriving on our shores and will as a result almost certainly threaten our culture, values and way of life.

They already have, or haven't you noticed? 🤦‍♀️ Our high streets are awash with vape shops, betting shops, Turkish barbers, many of them are fronts for OCG and drugs. Andy Burnham is now struggling to get them closed down because it's threatening our way of life. Do you really not see what is going on before your eyes?

You're making several different claims and treating them as if they prove the same thing.

If some vape shops, betting shops or barbers are involved in organised crime, then investigate and prosecute those responsible. Criminality should be dealt with robustly, regardless of the offender's ethnicity or nationality.

If some vape shops, betting shops or barbers are involved in organised crime, then investigate and prosecute those responsible. Criminality should be dealt with robustly, regardless of the offender's ethnicity or nationality.

But the existence of Turkish barbers or immigrant-owned businesses is not evidence that "immigrants have threatened our way of life". That's a leap from anecdote to stereotype.

The discussion should be about evidence, not assumptions. If the concern is organised crime, then let's discuss organised crime. If it's immigration, then let's discuss immigration. Conflating the two simply fuels prejudice rather than helping solve either problem.

I agree with everything you said WW2
I wouldn’t even be here if the Vikings in small boats hadn’t infiltrated our shores
Isn’t it bxxxdy wonderful that Brits and Europeans can take every country from their natives and be looked upon as great ……blooming ironic isn’t it

The arrival of Polish workers was a terrific benefit to us at least locally. They all seemed so good at their jobs and so hard working. I was sorry when so many of them left.

petra

fancythat

Things on immigration were all perfectly fine before about 1998.
Then I think it was Blair who decided to really mess things about.
Changed multiple laws.

Are you referring to the breakup of Yugoslavia?
If you are then the uk took less than 3,000 refugees.
The big change came in 2004 when 11 European countries joined the EU thereby allowing those countries free movement in the Schengen area.
Tony Blair had the option to restrict numbers as did some eu members but he chose not too.

As we were never in the Schengen area I don't quite see the relevance of that statement. 'Free movement' refers to the free movement of EU states' citizens between EU member states; nothing to do with asylum seekers who would be subject to the same border control as those from other third countries, surely?

The big fear in 2004 was about a perfectly legal influx of Eastern Europeans from the new member states. It was, I agree, foolish of Blair not to control it initially as allowed by EU rules.

Of course, in the EU referendum campaign EU 'free movement' seemed to become inextricably linked in many voters' minds with asylum seekers and foreign migrants. Encouraged no doubt by Farage's infamous poster...

fancythat

Things on immigration were all perfectly fine before about 1998.
Then I think it was Blair who decided to really mess things about.
Changed multiple laws.

Are you referring to the breakup of Yugoslavia?
If you are then the uk took less than 3,000 refugees.
The big change came in 2004 when 11 European countries joined the EU thereby allowing those countries free movement in the Schengen area.
Tony Blair had the option to restrict numbers as did some eu members but he chose not too.

MissAdventure

Couldn't arriving sans paperwork mean very much less likelihood of being granted asylum?
Is that too simplistic, or not even practical, considering the process of finding out why someone may genuinely be without their documents?

There may be many reasons why a proportion ( what are the figures) arrive without documentation- seized by trafficker, being trafficked as examples.

The fact is all asylum seeker applications are screened and scrutinised with or without documentation.

Galaxy

People have been voting to reduce immigration for over a decade. The only blip in this vote was Starmers Labour win, and that was mostly due to fury at the tories ineptitude at doing what they promised.

A blip to sone maybe but not all. Plus the LP have reduced asylum seeker figures

Cossy

Chesnut 11:16

No one is disputing this, however where are your creditable stats showing that these people are actually here illegally?

We have had many different companies/ships/restaurants here in this country for decades, especially in large towns and cities, being used as a front for money laundering and other illegal activities. That doesn’t mean that they are being run and owned by illegal immigrants.

We also have had a big issue with modern slavery, specifically involving illegal immigrants for a decade or more.

We have a Turkish barber at the top of our road, it’s now owned and run by a very nice Kurdish family, you can pay via debit card, my husband and son have their hair cut there regularly.

Not all of these places are illegal setups.

We really really need to get a grip!

I never said anything was being run by illegal immigrants. 🤦‍♀️

I was responding to the OP. These could be people who've been here for years but they are still immigrants. They are running illegal operations on our high streets which are definitely threatening our culture and way of life. The vape shops encourage youngsters in with the offer of vapes and alcohol. What more do you need to know? the BBC has done an extensive investigation on high street shops and it's shocking and scary. Andy Burnham has taken this on board and is trying to get our high streets back.

AGAA4

The right wing press peddles fear and is targeting asylum seekers. If they were not here it would be someone else they would blame for all the ills in society.
They are owned by billionaires who are not interested in the welfare of British people only in their quest for more money and power.

Yes

DaisyAnne, I put your questioning through AI and it came back with this:

A constructive debate on immigration requires looking at data, economic realities, and infrastructure capacity rather than relying on emotional rhetoric. Your five pillars provide a balanced framework for examining how population changes interact with public policy and state investment.

Housing

Population growth increases the total demand for housing, which puts upward pressure on private rents and house prices. However, economic research shows that the primary driver of the UK housing crisis is a structural deficit in supply. For decades, the UK has faced strict planning constraints and historically low rates of housebuilding compared to target requirements. Immigration adds to this existing pressure, but stopping migration would not solve the underlying shortage without significant planning reform and building investment.

Workforce

Several key sectors of the UK economy rely heavily on migrant labor to fill essential roles.

Healthcare: The NHS and social care sectors depend on international recruitment to meet staffing targets.

Agriculture and Food Processing: Seasonal and permanent migrant workers are critical for harvesting and supply chains.

Hospitality and Construction: These industries frequently face domestic recruitment shortages.As the UK population ages, the ratio of retirees to working-age adults increases, creating a reliance on younger migrant workers to sustain public revenues and support public services.

Public Services

Increased population places immediate demands on local infrastructure, including schools, GP surgeries, and transport networks.

Funding Lags: Central government funding allocations to local councils often lag behind rapid, localized population changes.

Staffing Contributions: While migrants increase demand, they also provide a significant portion of the workforce that delivers these very services, particularly in healthcare.

Infrastructure Capital: Pressures on infrastructure are often compounded by long-term underinvestment in capital projects, rather than population growth alone.

Policy Coordination

Experts frequently argue that immigration policy operates in isolation from domestic economic planning. A coordinated approach would align visa allocations with:

Regional Housing Targets: Directing growth toward areas with sufficient housing stock or planned developments.

National Skills Strategies: Using immigration to fill short-term gaps while simultaneously investing in domestic training and apprenticeships.

Local Authority Funding: Automatically adjusting local funding models based on real-time net migration data to mitigate strain on public services.

Integration

Balancing economic needs with social cohesion involves managing both the pace of change and public perception. Cohesion thrives when local communities feel that growth is managed, fair, and accompanied by adequate resources. Public confidence typically increases when migration is seen as part of an organized, rule-based system that benefits the host community while supporting the integration of new arrivals through language proficiency and community engagement.

I dont have an issue with legal immigration. I do have a massive problem with the ones arriving by boat with no documents, no way to id themselves, being housed in our communities and being allowed to walk freely amongst us, then claiming benefits and being housed. If they were truly in fear of their lives they would have settled in the first safe country they arrived in, not left their wives and children behind and not travelled thousands of miles to get to Britain.

edit one sentence for clarity:

" I regularly see them in the park: my gym is very multi cultural but of course would not include irregular migrants."