This sounds awful … Elderly lady euthanised against her will in Canada

BlueBelle

I would have thought if there was even a smidgen of doubt in the person being euthanised, they should have stopped immediately and waited for further confirmation with both the lady in question and the family involved
Sounds very loosy goosey to me and dangerous

The GD who held POA over the poor woman had the opportunity to intervene - but didn't - yet was the one who made the claim/complaint...

This doesn't really make much sense does it?

So one has to question the source of the information we're being provided with - or wait for the results of the investigation. Or both.

Canada does not permit euthanasia solely for homelessness, but Associated Press investigations and medical review committees have found cases where vulnerable individuals facing poverty, isolation, or the threat of losing housing applied for or received state-assisted dying.

How many times do you hear of elderly women who "do not want to be a bother" or who are persuaded out of their savings. It is not going to be too much of a stretch for a doctor or family member to persuade someone like this to end their suffering, save the NHS the cost.

I have personal experience of DNR added to my hospital record without telling or even asking me. I am reasonably healthy (minor op for gall bladder). A friend (aged 69) with diabetes was actually encouraged to do so because of a leg infection requiring amputation of toes. We are becoming disposable.

Not only that, active, proactive care is disappearing too - an elderly friend became bedbound after a fall. Instead of getting him help to get up and about, they sent in home carers. He can only just get out of bed now. And, because it is convenient to them, they have moved him into his lounge without a downstairs toilet or shower - he only gets bedbath and his wife has to empty and clean a commode provided.

All the safeguards they promise simply will not happen. Think back to the abortion bill, which was for life threatening situations, and extreme situations, and now it is routine for contraception with no post care for woman either, and choices no longer include place of safety and adoption.

Shocking, about the DNR, FranP.

How many times do you hear of elderly women who "do not want to be a bother" or who are persuaded out of their savings.

Personally I have never come across this - except the very casual not wanting to be a bother of the "don't come over especially to change a light bulb" sort.
I have heard of such things but can't honestly even pinpoint where.

On the other hand I have heard of people changing their wills in favour of (greedy and manipulative) people who are not family and don't seem to be interested in the person.
I have not come across any elderly women being persuaded out of savings whilst alive (love scams aside).

I wonder how many of us have genuinely got personal experience of this?

I'm not saying one case isn't too many - but genuinely wondering.

NotSpaghetti. No, I also do not have any experience of this. So, maybe it is a rarer thing than we might fear. It does seem extreme. My mother was very ill but always wanted to live. I have not forgotten that will to stay alive. It is a very strong instinct in all of us, the one for us to survive.

My dear friend's mother (in a state that allows this) had "had enough". She had outlived her husband and her friends, was ill, in pain, and determined to die.
The family were spoken to about her wishes and she had plenty of opportunity (and encouragement to look at all other options) but she was determined. She said her farewells and was helped to take her own life on a day she chose with her family close.

This is the only (nearly) personal knowledge I have of this way of dying.

It feels very sad to me - but as my friend explained "she has been dying day by day since my father died".
My friend was sad for herself but relieved for her mother.
She specifically made a "goodbye" trip and said "all the things that were never said before".
My friend's siblings and the grandchildren did likewise.

I think they all feel it was a "good death".

My own mother had a "good death" too - in her sleep at home. She almost certainly wouldn't have chosen this assisted way to die. Death was inevitable for her because her cancer had progressed- but it wasn't too long drawn out - a few months - and she wasn't always in pain.

I'm sure we would all like a death at home in the night in our own beds (like my mum), but as someone I heard on the radio once said - if every new dawn is dreaded then it's a miserable life.

I remember a Louis Theroux documentary on euthanasia in different counties.
There was a Canadian lady, who the medics thought was suffering life changing illness with not a good outcome. They persuaded her to have a medical assistant death. Postmortem found she was suffering from something completely different which needed antibiotics.

FranP

How many times do you hear of elderly women who "do not want to be a bother" or who are persuaded out of their savings. It is not going to be too much of a stretch for a doctor or family member to persuade someone like this to end their suffering, save the NHS the cost.

I have personal experience of DNR added to my hospital record without telling or even asking me. I am reasonably healthy (minor op for gall bladder). A friend (aged 69) with diabetes was actually encouraged to do so because of a leg infection requiring amputation of toes. We are becoming disposable.

Not only that, active, proactive care is disappearing too - an elderly friend became bedbound after a fall. Instead of getting him help to get up and about, they sent in home carers. He can only just get out of bed now. And, because it is convenient to them, they have moved him into his lounge without a downstairs toilet or shower - he only gets bedbath and his wife has to empty and clean a commode provided.

All the safeguards they promise simply will not happen. Think back to the abortion bill, which was for life threatening situations, and extreme situations, and now it is routine for contraception with no post care for woman either, and choices no longer include place of safety and adoption.

How did you find out about that?
Did you get it reversed?

My friend’s son, terminal cancer was having a chat with his mum, she said he wasn’t in any pain. When a nurse/Doctor arrived & administered an injection of morphine. She asked them not to give him the injection as they were chatting. She wanted to ask him if he was frightened, but never got the chance, as he was more or less out of the game, he died a few hours later.
She beats herself up that she should have been much firmer with them.

*A TWO-YEAR-OLD child has been euthanised after the Dutch government cut its age limit for assisted dying.

The toddler was nearly 24 months old and suffering from severe medical conditions, a review board in the Netherlands revealed*
Severely ill mentally and physically but …….. I m not comfortable with this at all

Hi BlueBelle I mentioned that up thread and NotSpaghetti responded with some background information.

BlueBelle

*A TWO-YEAR-OLD child has been euthanised after the Dutch government cut its age limit for assisted dying.

The toddler was nearly 24 months old and suffering from severe medical conditions, a review board in the Netherlands revealed*
Severely ill mentally and physically but …….. I m not comfortable with this at all

😳

I was all for euthanasia, but not so sure now. It’s such a complicated issue.
What I don’t understand is why my aunt couldn’t die in peace.
She collapsed with heart attack, 84.
DNR in place (family didn’t know), the hospital put it in place, so should that not have been logged with Emergency services? still emergency services gave her CPR, only stopping as they said they were now starting to crack her ribs 😩

MT62

I was all for euthanasia, but not so sure now. It’s such a complicated issue.
What I don’t understand is why my aunt couldn’t die in peace.
She collapsed with heart attack, 84.
DNR in place (family didn’t know), the hospital put it in place, so should that not have been logged with Emergency services? still emergency services gave her CPR, only stopping as they said they were now starting to crack her ribs 😩

Imagine bringing someone back after a heart attack, only for them to die a month later from terminal cancer. I think it’s crazy imo.

The amount of hard deaths (that’s what I use to call it for people struggling to die, I would want euthanasia for myself, if I thought I was going to struggle to pass over peacefully. I suppose it’s too late when you get to that stage of the game to sort anything out.

Even with a ReSPECT form, unless paramedics see a paper signed copy they will automatically start CPR if attending an emergency.
Nothing is automatically logged on the 999 system fir them to know about it.
The ;presumption^ is life.

NotSpaghetti

Even with a ReSPECT form, unless paramedics see a paper signed copy they will automatically start CPR if attending an emergency.
Nothing is automatically logged on the 999 system fir them to know about it.
The ;presumption^ is life.

Yes agree. The hospital should have made next of kin (who visited the hospital every day) aware she had a DNR in place, & given the nok paper work to have in place, in case of this exact emergency.
No point having one if the relevant information isn’t going to be passed on.
Plus care agencies, lifeline pendant people need to know, friends who visit who might find that person unresponsive.
So I blame the hospital for not passing on that relevant information to her nok

Ambulance were told she had end stage cancer, & month to live but still worked on her for 25 minutes.
I don’t agree as she had been dead for 40 minutes by the time they arrived- she more than likely would’ve have been brain dead if they had managed to get a pulse.

Not trying to be argumentative here but the ReSPECT form is personal to the person signing it.
Unless you have an active health PoA they shouldn't really be discussing it.
When my mother-in-law did these forms (twice) she asked for us to be with her so we knew about them. One was done in hospital post stroke and the other by a doctor who came out to her home some months later "to check and update".
She had already done the DNR form at her surgery.

I think if she was against it, it’s murder, not “assisted dying”. This is why language matters. When we get so used to dressing ugly things up in pretty language, trouble follows.

But isn’t that the whole point of having DNR? That you aren’t brought back to life!
I think these DNRs should be on some kind of on-line register so that ambulance crew & police are made aware.
No point having it top secret, no point at all!

Do not resuscitate, only means they will not use defibrillator to revive you. It does not mean that other methods of resuscitation will not be used.

We have discussed this in some detail with a paramedic and a nurse. DH's breastbone did not reknit after his triple bypass because the side effects of the operation. Using a defibrillator on him would assuredly kill him.

He only signed the form when he was thoroughly sure that, in the event of him collapsing, all methods of resuscitaion would be used other than a defibrillator.

a DNACPR (Do Not Attempt Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation) covers all methods.
So chest compressions, defibrillation, artificial ventilation, or emergency drugs.

www.nhs.uk/tests-and-treatments/do-not-attempt-cardiopulmonary-resuscitation-dnacpr-decisions/

If you wish to make your refusal of CPR legally binding for when in the future you are unable to make this decision, then you should write an Advance Decision to Refuse Treatment (ADRT). An ADRT explains to a doctor or medical team when you want to refuse CPR (or other treatments).

I see the link provided is from Fox news, an American far right outfit that has been known to stretch the truth, similar to some of your daily news outlets. I can’t find the story on any reliable Canadian news source.

It would be interesting to hear the real story. I’m not saying bad things don’t happen but there are safeguards set in place and MAID needs two certified authorizations. Who signed the papers ? Indeed the investigation needs to be done and published.

NotSpaghetti

a DNACPR (Do Not Attempt Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation) covers all methods.
So chest compressions, defibrillation, artificial ventilation, or emergency drugs.

www.nhs.uk/tests-and-treatments/do-not-attempt-cardiopulmonary-resuscitation-dnacpr-decisions/

^If you wish to make your refusal of CPR legally binding for when in the future you are unable to make this decision, then you should write an Advance Decision to Refuse Treatment (ADRT). An ADRT explains to a doctor or medical team when you want to refuse CPR (or other treatments).^

NotSpaghetti* That is what we thought, but discussed it in detail with two of the many NHS staff who treated DH at different times and both were, separately, quite clear, that the document only applied to any treatment that directly put pressure on the chest, which would have killed DH.

In France by the time the paramedics arrived he had been dead for about 30 minutes, so we just let them get on with whatever it was their procedure included, on the basis that we already knew that he was dead well beyond resuscitation