Chauvinism and how do you deal with it?

Also, I have known a couple of men that referred to women as females... "You females..." followed by a sweeping generalisation. That really grates.

As a spinster I'm glad for the invention of "Ms". Miss would make me feel a bit Haversham like, and when I am called Mrs I get a slight queezy feeling as that would mean I was married to my father.

I guess this might be a contentious post, but there is another way of thinking about this. The people who referred to me as a "lady" at work were intending to be polite. But what it actually did was separate me from the other members of the team and subconsciously remind them that I was different. The connotation of "lady" in that context was completely unnecessary, but they had been conditioned into thinking that they had to be nice to me.

Some colleagues used to apologise for swearing in front of me until I proved I know some words that made their hair curl....

Luckygirl

Intention is what matters.

Got it in one, Luckygirl.

sodapop

Try living in France, man is king still here, its so frustrating. I could always find a put down in English but by the time I've thought it through in French the moment has gone.

In the US as well- By society, by their wives/partners, co-workers, family and friends- The men are elevated and treated as though they are "owed" and women "owned"-

They flat out refuse to hold themselves accountable individually and collectively- Lots of mama's boys, golden child, king of the household types that have a habit of aggressively mansplaining things to women-

However, the Covid crisis has forced many more women to file for divorce and/or escape deadend/abusive relationships-

I've estranged/distanced myself from more than one man in the past year- Enough is enough-

There's a great line in the Burns song "Green Grow the Rashes, O", about nature.

Her 'prentice han she tried on man, and then she made the lasses, O

Well, God made him first.
Realised he wasn't quite as She intended.
Then She created woman.

Alegrias re m/f versus f/m
M tends to go first as man is seen as the default human.

I'm also a bit worried as well about the men starting work earlier, but that's a whole other debate

I just assumed that they were the cleaners, Algerias

But we should never assume anything!

I'm happy to be called anything, just to prove I'm still alive.
Us really oldies very often get ignored.

As the women arrive I greet each one by her first name, but had they been a collective like the men I would have said: "Good morning Ladies." Has that become some sort of heresy

I wouldn't mind at all (although some might) as long as it wasn't 'Good Morning Girls', but perhaps 'Good Morning Everyone' or 'All' would suffice?

I was at a conference about the gender gap in STEM subjects, and one of the speakers was Jocelyn Bell Burnell, one of my heroes. She was asked about institutional sexism and held up the form we were all asked to fill in at the end of the day. It had the usual question about gender: m/f/prefer not to say.

She asked, since this was a conference about the gender gap, why not have them in alphabetical order? She wasn't really being serious, but it made everyone think. The next day, the forms were reprinted: f/m/prefer not to say.

MrsRochester, jaylucy

The word "darling" is no more an endearment to some people than "honey" or "sweetheart" and a lot of people will say it without thinking to complete strangers - they don't mean anything by it at all!
Personally I think it will be a sad day when you get called by anything that is less than derogatory or "Oy"!

Alegrias

It would sound awful to say ‘good morning women‘!

Made me think of the Diary of a Wimpy Kid film (I was forced to endure ).

Teenaged boy gets caught with inappropriate magazine in school bag.
His mother demands “what have you got to say to Women”

Boy hesitates, then “sorry, Women”. ?

It would sound awful to say ‘good morning women‘!

Of course - so just "Good Morning" is more than enough!

I’m used to men of a certain age addressing women as ladies and it doesn’t bother me at all. I think they are trying to be respectful though of course it’s an anachronism these days. It would sound awful to say ‘good morning women‘! Women referring to a group of us as ‘ladies’ annoys me a bit- it sounds rather arch. I prefer ‘girls’ - but I know many people don’t. I don’t mind being called love, darling, me duck etc when it’s just friendliness - it’s accompanying innuendo which makes it creepy. Also I hate being referred to as ‘guys’ but my adult offspring think that’s fine.
I think there are many differing opinions and it’s rather a can of worms.

As long as it's kind, I'm happy to be someone's dear, duck, darling or hen. (Especially hen!)

Spangler

Thank you for all of your replies. I'm at a loss though about addressing females as Ladies. At work, when entering the office, there's only the men there, they start earlier.
"Good morning Gents," is the collective greeting, all of them will reply individually with "Morning, followed by my name.

As the women arrive I greet each one by her first name, but had they been a collective like the men I would have said: "Good morning Ladies." Has that become some sort of heresy?

I had to walk through the main Engineering office at work to get to my office. I was the “boss”, and by coincidence everybody in the Engineering office was male. My usual greeting was “morning”, not “Good Morning Gents”.

Identifying a group or individual by their gender at work is an absolute no-no, whether you call them gents, ladies, girls or anything else. The use of the term ladies or girls is associated with power, whether you mean it to be or not. That’s why, in my opinion, its OK for me to call my group of friends girls when we’re going for lunch, but it’s not OK for a random person of any gender to call us girls. That’s about respect.

I personally don’t have any trouble at all with people using dear, duck, my lover etc, as they usually are applying it to everyone.

I'm also a bit worried as well about the men starting work earlier, but that's a whole other debate.....

Intention is what matters.

During lockdown my veg was delivered by a kindly man who always called me darling. It cheered me up. My husband did question me about it though, but as I hadn’t been out of his sight for weeks, it was hardly going to mean anything. Far be it from me to upset the delivery man who was just being friendly.
The lady on the Aldi checkout calls everyone My Love, which is her way of being friendly.

Teaching in a girls’ school, if addressing a group, we often called them Ladies, rather than girls, to get their attention, or maybe to appeal to their more adult side.

What is all the fuss about?

It looks as though different people have different reactions to being adressed in different ways. Some terms make some people feel patronised that others take for granted or don't even notice. Rather like the reactions on other threads to words that have resonances of colour, race, social status, past trreatment of ancestors and so on.

Callistemon
We could now have the debate about jam or cream first’l

Now there really is no debate about that .....

I don’t particularly like being called “dear” as I find it rather patronising, but I do find that if it’s said in the right tone of voice and in a soft and kindly way, I’m fine with it. I don’t mind being called darling, duck or love as long as it’s meant in a kindly way. For a man, I think the word “Sir” is very respectful. Maybe rather old-fashioned courtesy now though, but respectful nonetheless. As has already been said here, context is definitely everything.

sodapop

Try living in France, man is king still here, its so frustrating. I could always find a put down in English but by the time I've thought it through in French the moment has gone.

Really? I did grape picking in the early 60's. I did it for two years running, following the harvest from the south, northwards as the grapes ripened. It wasn't so much for the pay, which was pitiful, it was to immerse in the language, which I was lucky enough to do. Nothing like a French fancy to motivate a young blood.