Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

xpost Sorry, notanan, I should know better than to speak for you!

Notanan wrote: I have of course over the years tried to address various individual issues.. but it's so normal to her for relationships to be destructive that it's hard . I tried things like lowering my expectations to just basic civility from her.. it never lasts. How long should I have kept trying?

How is that not giving her the opportunity, N&G?

There's an obdurate reluctance here to accept that some people just are screwed up, and having children unfortunately doesn't suddenly unscrew them. Don't you know at least one person, even incidentally, who can't interact with the world as 'normal' folks do?

The best outcome I've had in the past is a temporary reprieve.. sometimes it lasted just long enough for me to hope that we'ld found a "new normal". And then it turns ugly again and I would be crushed.

I could chose to accept that damaging cycle when it was just affecting me. But when my children were added into the mix I had to do something to stop it.

NanaandGrampy

As I've said in several of my posts, NC didn't happen over night. How many chances to you give people to change?

No, I haven't said "I want you to change everything you are". Because that is as pointless as hurtful and nobody can do that for you so what's the point.

But I have tried to address destructive behaviours over. and over. and over. for decades. For too long. I am ashamed that I kept trying to the point where it overspilled to my DDs and affected them.. after years and years and years why did I expect or hope for any better towards them?

That's where you and I must differ I think. If you haven't told her how will she know? Mind reading is no ones strong suit.

From my point of view I would have that conversation then the onus is on her. I personally think it's unfair not to. You know what the problem is. You've made a resolution that works for you but is it not possible she's doing what she's always done because that what she always does?

If you do what you've always done you'll get what you always got - said my smart Gran lol

At least give her the opportunity to change ( some people can you know) or at least fully understand why she's lost you all ?

MNers are only young yet, mostly, and so do not have our years of experience behind them.

When NCing AC are refered to in the general sense on here they're often refered to as "young mums".

It's a rather dismissive assumption. I'm old enough to be a nan, although I'm not one.

She must know that. You're very straight talking so I'm guessing you told her that

No of course I haven't, you can't ask someone to change to their core? that wouldn't be fair on anyone. It's when you realise that that your heart sinks and you realise that there's nowhere to go but NC.

I have of course over the years tried to address various individual issues.. but it's so normal to her for relationships to be destructive that it's hard .

I tried things like lowering my expectations to just basic civility from her.. it never lasts.

How long should I have kept trying?, how long do my kids have to be part of that?

*notanan I have no personal interest in the cut out of their lives thread that has exercised you, but it strikes me that there's some inconsistency in your position.
You seem to be saying that reconciliation would only be possible if the parent who has been subjected to NC were prepared to move on and create a new dynamic or words to that effect.*
At the same time, you say your mother can't help 'being herself' and thus implying there's no way she can change herself to achieve this change.
Do you see what I mean? A bit Catch 22, isn't it?

Yes, it is a catch 22 that we are in as the adult children. My position isn't inconsistant but as you say, we (the AC) are caught up in a catch 22. The possible outcomes are:
1.No contact continues
2.Healthy contact is re-established
3.Contact is re-esablished and it goes back to being unhealthy/damaging
If contact is re-established I have no control over whether it would be no2 or 3. The only "choice" I have had in he past was no1 or no3. There have been many many second chances but no2 has never lasted long.
So. Do I chance contact again (on the increasingly unlikely off chance of no2) and put my kids at risk of no3? Or do I save them from more of that by remaining at no1?
Without a crystal ball, I'm trying to judge which is best for the children.

Can I ask, if one if your own children had a personality or behaviour traits that you considered led to your relationship with them being 'unhealthy' - would you go NC with your own child?
Yes in extreme circumstances. I mean nobody wants to admit this but some relationships become to destructive to sustain, it reminds me of a very sad and frank/honest documentary about parents of a drug addict who had to eventially (after years of theft and arson and violence) ban their daughter from their home and stop taking her in. It is awful when any relationship becomes desructive, and so much harder to protect yourself and the rest of your family from it when there's the inbuilt societal guilt about "but they're family". Sometimes you just have to save yourself and your other loved ones. Heartbreaking though.

I read your post with such sadness notanan

Your poor mum. She might well be the WORST mother ever but you're never going to let her back in your life because you've made up your mind she can't/won't change.

She must know that. You're very straight talking so I'm guessing you told her that.

As a mother , with 2 daughters, and 4 grandchildren my heart would be broken if I heard that from one of my children. I'm not sure if I could survive that. I mean that most sincerely . I think it's possible to die from a broken heart.

So , whilst I'm immensely sorry for your situation you have obviously resolved it to make your life as you would wish it. Sounds like your mum will never have that .

Just to set the record straight - anti-depressants are not addictive. You need to tail them off slowly though to make sure that the depression has been knocked on the head. It is important not to put people off taking what might be a life saver for them.

But some GNers have said that they already acknowledged and apologized for their mistakes

mmm yes, acknoledging mistakes is part of the path to healing.. but just part. If people apologise then keep up the same unhealthy behaviour, then apologise again , and so on.. it's not so good. A true apology is a pledge to do better in that respect in the future.

Honestly it wouldn't make a difference if my mother apologised. Her behaviour, her normal, is part of her.. and people can't be expected to apologise for who they are. How can they? what's going to happen after the apology? they morph into someone else? NC didn't come about due to an isolated row that can be "made up". It came about because the relationship has always been unhealthy, and the ugliness spilt over and affected my DDs.

I have seen a lot of posts that say variations of "I have apologised even though I don't know what I was apologising for". That's not an apology and is pretty passive agressive. It's like when someone says "well I'm sorry if you think I did something wrong" - its more of a dig than a move forward

Yogagirl.....my granddaughter is still very young, but it is my hope that she's allowed to visit when she's a bit older. To be honest, from the little my other son, who is very close to his brother, has said, it causes a lot of trouble if her mother's wishes are not upheld. So I've suggested that it's left for now. My health isn't great, and I don't feel emotionally strong enough for a battle.

Katek I am assuming that my daughter is still on the anti-depressants, as I know after taking them for years they become very addictive and very hard to come off of, especially as her nasty husband wants her kept on them, so as to have full control. If I got her back, I would help her wean off of them.
I had a young friend, who after having twins, her partner abandoned her. She told me all about how the anti-depressants made her feel she was living in a fog and after a few years she knew she had to get off of them, so she would cut a 1/4 off for a month or so and continued like that, till she was free of them. She is now doing really well. She said being on anti-depressants for a long time is very damaging!

Rosyglow so very sorry you don't get to see your GC, nice you see your Son, but that is odd, can your Son not bring his C to see you when he visits? Thank you for your post, your comments are appreciated

Katek My s.i.l lived with me, so I know first hand that his day starts with a big fat joint, smoked at the bottom of the garden, and his day ends the same, in the middle, every half hour or so. After I was cut out, my ND told me he also snorts cocaine and is a dealer, he asked ND once for some cash to enable him to 'do a deal', of course ND said 'no'. S.i.l has smoked skunk since he was 13yrs, he is open about it, he said to me once "D, you have a glass of wine to chill-out, I have my pot" Afterwards, I could see the signs; very skinny, bad teeth and very hyper. Most long term users of skunk & cocaine go on to stronger stuff, but that I don't know about, and I'm sure he would not be so free with this info!

My ND & estD met up on the 14th Feb last year, and she told her sister she was still on the strong anti-depressants. We hoped we had a break through and was maybe going to get her back, but no We think her nasty husband didn't know she was meeting up with her sister and when he found out, put a stop to it. There was no more contact

Thank you so much for that very good advise Elgran unfortunately 3.5yrs too late!
I would have gone on your advise if I'd had it at the time.
Yes Wendysue he did see it as a threat, but none intended by me, the fact is he is not my GD father, but my now estD told me she could never mention it as he got angry, and she told me to be careful not to either, at the time I just thought it a bit odd and left it at that. It was 6weeks after he took her back, that I was cut out. He used to avoid me when I went round to visit, but I thought it would just blow over, I phoned once and he picked up, I said "Hello J, how are you?" and he just put the phone down, so I then knew things weren't right, but still thought it would just run it's course and we would be talking again.
Fairydoll Your Son did the right thing, you are lucky to have him. My ND & I often say that this is what my D [ND sister] should have done, just seen us with the C and her nasty husband could have stayed away, if that's what he wanted, it wasn't what I wanted though, I wanted normality.

I just wonder if some of the 'abuse' referred to is just not agreeing with someone's point of view!

Well, yes and no. As we have seen from these fiery threads, some adult children and their parents have conflicting points of view on what constitutes abuse. That's normal enough. It's a rare abuser who says "hands up, I treat the people who love me like I am the God Of Everything and they are acolytes who must please Me or be corrected." But most abusers think like that, though I'll give myself some credit for creative expression

The sad part about it, imo, is when they're incapable of seeing how this looks from a more 'normal' perspective. But incapable = genuinely not able, so there you go. It's an impasse. The only thing to do with an impasse is take the other road, even if it goes in an unexpected direction.

If you mean they fell out over ideological differences - it can happen, yes. I have a comparable story:-

A friend of my family is a white supremacist. He really believes in what he says, which is stunningly racist, and loves nothing more than expounding his "logic" to a captive audience at dinner. Having tried every approach from delicate to blunt as a mallet, and been dismissed, I simply told him & his (very adorable) wife that I find this distressing to hear so will choose not to in future. Cue dinner at their house: he launches into his theories; I quietly excuse myself and go outside for a fag. He was outraged! Utterly fuming at my disrespect for his opinions. Told everyone they know about my abuse of his hospitality, shocking manners, and ingratitude. This was years ago and he still avoids me as much as possible.

What if he was my father? His views really are obnoxious. I find it hard to believe anyone seriously thinks skin colour denotes intelligence & competence, but he does. I would still have had to walk away. He would still have dismissed my feelings as irrelevant. We'd still be limiting ourselves to polite greetings ... and he is the offended one, remember? People might think it awfully sad that his daughter avoids him, but what to do? Families do divide for ideological reasons sometimes.

I can't imagine you think they may have fallen out over a difference of opinion about what style of pushchair a GC should have, or anything like that. Happy families have successful conflict resolution strategies. Nobody reaches adulthood without having big rows with their parents (usually starting at 18 months, and repeating on a regular basis to 18 years ) Happy families know this, and get along just fine.

No-one would break up a happy, well-functioning family relationship over a petty row. They know how to get past that. The narrative of a broken family might sound like it, though. Their conflict resolution may always have been poor. One party may always have got their way. The habitually losing party may have cracked at the final dig, however trivial in isolation, and gone "No more!" You know, the straw that broke the camel's back.

There are as many stories as there are people, and everyone believes their's is the truth.

In my opinion, it is very wrong to assume that the grandparents on this thread are automatically to blame for the breakdown of the relationships with their adult children. It may well be the case, it may well be something entirely different. Whatever the reason, heartbreak and pain is clearly involved. Those posting on MN are blatantly doing just this, and making sweeping generalisations, in accordance with their own experience.

I am not - and pray I never will be - NC with my adult son. We have the same close, loving and very normal relationship we have always had. Except for one very important aspect. I have no relationship with my granddaughter. Why? Because, for reasons known only to her, his wife has decided that this is how it will be. For my son's sake, I have stepped away. The comments being made, that of course we always know exactly what we have done, are so far removed from reality, as to be laughable. The only thing I know is pain and heartbreak, as a widow living many miles away from my beloved son and granddaughter.

As I said, so many different stories, and so much assumption. Walk a mile in my shoes, indeed.

yogagirl I'm puzzled. You say that your SIL is a drug addict - can you expand on that - and also that your dd is on heavy duty antidepressants. How do you know that this is the current situation as you haven't had any contact for 3.5 years?

estrangement is the happy ending nannaandgrampy

Over the years I have begun to realise that this is indeed the case for my family (ie myself and our DC). My husband said this all along, and clearly believed it from the very start of the fall-out. I couldn't see it at first, because in my (maybe slightly immature?) mind I still held out for the 'prefect' happy extended family for my children.

But my husband clearly knew his parents much better than I did. They had managed to put on a facade of 'happy families' for me for a few years, or at least until I dared to argue with them. All along he used to warn me that we should keep them at arms length to a certain extent, no matter how 'nice' they could be and how much they had 'mellowed'. I suppose twenty-odd years of their bully-style parenting was what really showed their true colours .

I know I am lucky, I have a lovely husband who treats me well and is the kindest person I know. He is a wonderful dad to our children, despite being given pretty much no direction on that front growing up himself. If the subject ever comes up he is quick to remind me that the 'loving grandparents' I wish for from his side of the family never actually existed.

Usually I am pretty much reconciled with all this, just that this thread, and the one on MN really hit me hard for some reason

WendySue

Third para of your post that begins 'But some etc etc

You put it most succinctly - some grans are damned whatever they do to try and move a relationship forward with AC or DIL/ SIL. They (the AC) can always find a 'reason' to stay away and withhold their children from the grandparents.
I just wonder if some of the 'abuse' referred to is just not agreeing with someone's point of view! Hmmm....

I am not estranged from my son (most definitely not - he's a kind and loving person) but his partner has estranged herself from us. Frankly, we are relieved!
We understood that when their child was born they both had sleepless nights and that she more than likely was suffering from PND. We gave help and support only when it was asked for, never made unscheduled visits and never,ever judged or criticised. Despite our best efforts she was extremely rude to us and we have been the target of her outbursts on several occasions.

It took us a while to realise we were being bullied.

Since she cut herself off, our lives are peaceful again, we don't have to tread on eggshells. My son brings DGS to see us regularly. I am so proud of him that he has the balls to stand up to this woman.

Where it goes from here I have no idea, but we are just enjoying a nice, quiet life.

Sorry to post so much but I meant to say this earlier and, unfortunately, we can't edit/add to posts on here.... Some MNers are critical of an EP asking for an explanation for their AC's anger at them. But I don't see any harm in that. Hard to redress a wrong if you (general) don't know what it is.

If the EAC has already told the EP what the problem is and the EP keeps acting like they "don't know" what happened, then that's a different story. I see that some of the MNers are saying that's how it was in their situations and I totally get if they just gave up explaining after a while. Same if explanations just led to more arguing and criticizing by the EPs.

But some GNers have said that they already acknowledged and apologized for their mistakes. And that all it led to was their AC/CIL accusing them of further offenses which they (EP) say the didn't commit. It seems in those cases, the AC/CIL are just making excuses. Either they can't bring themselves to talk about the real issues or they just want to remain estranged.

Or maybe the EAC and EPs in those cases just see the same behavior differently. Unfortunately, I think these things can be more complex than meets the eye.

Yoga, I don't recall if this has been said before, but, sadly, sil probably took your custody comment as a threat, no matter how nicely you said it. Even so, he sounds like a very controlling man.

If you know that he made estD take the full dose of her meds, then she must have still been talking to you at the time, But why did she listen to him? He's either very persuasive or else he has some kind of hold on her.

Whitewave and Badenkate, your families' relationships sound beautiful! My family is fine, too, though we've had some rocky moments. I've learned not to question/criticize my adult DDs' choices and that has made things go more smoothly. (Fortunately, they haven't made too many of those, IMO, and never made any seriously bad ones, that I know of.).

But still, I read some of the stories here and think "there but for fortune..." Cuz I figure you (general) never know exactly which way the wind will blow.

yogagirl Medical confidentiality only goes one way - you could tell her doctor all this, without him having to tell you anything and break that confidentiality. Then, if he thinks it advisable, he can send her a "prescription review" letter to make an appointment and discuss her medication. If that appointment is without your SiL (or even if he insists on being there) the doctor can subtly ask the right questions and find out just what strength of tablets she needs, without being influenced by what SiL says. He might even uncover some other aspects of her home life.

Every time I hear an ambulance or a helicopter go by, I think of my D, fearing somethings happened to her.