Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

Though thankfully, I'm not estranged from my AC and families, I know that "you never know" and so, I read threads about estrangement both here, on MN and elsewhere. As such, I have some opinions on the topic of this thread.

IMO, it's good for both AC/CIL and parents/PIL to realize there are "2 sides to every story" and get a chance to see what might be the other perspective. However, the 2 threads being discussed on MN, as I understand it, were opened up as support threads for EPs/EGPs. While sometimes one poster will make a suggestion of how another poster might handle their situation differently or question a choice they made, it's usually done gently, and for the most part, those threads are for people to give each other comfort. Some of the situations are, sadly, beyond hope and the GPs just need something to help them to get through and move on. Even if the scenario isn't hopeless, sometimes, IMO, a person needs to hear, "I understand." There's a place for constructive criticism, I believe, but not in those threads.

In fact, I've read threads on MN where I could see what the MIL's perspective might be and how the DIL might be missing that - and yet other MNers rallied around her to agree that her MIL was a terrible boundary-stomper and so forth. Sometimes a DIL/AC needs that kind of support and sometimes a MIL/parent/GP needs that, too.

Also, while I agree with those who say the MN thread is merely pointing out that there are 2 sides and so on, some of the posts say very cruel things about the EPs in the estrangement threads, even suggesting that the EPs feelings have no validity. IMO, while some EPs may be totally in the wrong, that doesn't mean that that their feelings aren't very real or that they don't actually have a side to the story.

Interestingly, if you (general) read carefully enough, you'll see that both sides tend to accuse each other of NPD! Not sure what to think of that...

Meanwhile, my heart goes out to all the DDs/DILs who have come in here and told us about their problems w/ their MILs and so one. Thank you for reminding us that AC/CIL can suffer, too. We need that perspective.

"Probably better to just accept the situation in front of me." Yes, accepting that the situation is not going to change allows it to fade into the background, and not be a continual thorn in the flesh.

When you have apologised for anything that you realise you did wrong, stopped doing it again (very important!) and genuinely tried to construct a different relationship, then found that it is impossible, the best thing is to accept that you have separate lives and get on with your own without "picking at the scab" - nothing heals if you don't leave it alone.

The first hurdle is realising what part you have played in the rift, and that is where many people fail to even get started. It doesn't have to be downright abuse. It could have been a genuine wish to do the best for a child -

- discouraging friends who seemed unsuitable,
- banning a boyfriend or girlfriend from a different background without considering the personality of that actual person,
- pushing a child into a career that doesn't suit them because it is "safe"
- being so dependent on them for emotional supprt that they feel smothered.

Then, when they leave home to set up their own family, -

- not respecting their judgment about bringing them up,
- interfering and subverting their plans and refusing to compromise,
- expecting unreasonable access at all times, when the parents are trying to establish a routine of their own.

Finally - taking umbrage when told to back off a little and turning it into a soap opera drama.

I am a gran who has given up trying with my DD. I have waited years and a few different MILS to have my child think I am a real person who would actually like to see DD and DGCs at any time but also on the special days like birthdays Easter, Christmas etc. I have waited a long time never demanding that I am the gran who gets the visit. It is not just me it is other members of my DD's family who have waited for her to visit. Some invites have been made and not even acknowledged and certainly not accepted and carried through.
It is hard to accept that it was OK for her family to bring her up but as soon as she got into boyfriends we were of no further use to her. It started when she was 18 or 19. Understanding why is not so easy, she will not accept that she is the one who favours her In Laws (several) over her own relatives. Yet when things are bad we are expected to rush to her aid.
It has affected my health and my confidence. I think I feel a bit better not to have expectations rather than on every occasion waiting and wondering if there will be a visit. Probably better to just accept the situation in front of me.

I haven't been on any of the MN threads where anyone "just severed contact", it's a long and painful decision to get to that point. Nobody wants to have to do it! But invariably posters say they feel they had to do it, there was no other choice.

I didn't turn 18 and decide "I don't need my parents to keep my alive now, I'm off". I spent too long of my adulthood trying to salvage some sort of normal relationship with my parent.

It wasn't normal. She probably thought it was, or at least more normal than her own upbringing, but it was not normal or healthy. Of course I tried to talk about it but it's a bit of a brick wall when she thinks her behaviour was fine, and the way things were was just "normal family stuff" (it wasn't!) and in some cases completely denies some events took place.

I think the fact that families are actually named and are so easily identified on a forum and their transgressions so publicized jist points out how the split happened in the first place. I feel deep sorrow for all concerned. They now need to move on with their separate lives. Too much water has flowed under the bridge for reconciliation.

Luckylegs I've not yet come across anyone either on mn or in real life that has taken the decision lightly/without good cause.

In my case there is genuine quite serious abuse to factor in too, and I still waivered.

Apologies if I misunderstood, as I'm sure you can appreciate I'm just rather used to hearing excuses and reasons why I'M the bad guy for taking the decision to protect my child.

My father absolutely will not accept he's done anything wrong, neither will sister (her nor father), my mother accepts SOME of what happened was awful but is in denial (an overused and misunderstood term by those who've never truly witnessed it) about the worst stuff.

What surprised me was the bad language used and it didn't seem worrying to some young mums to ditch the parents if they don't agree with their point of view. You have to be open minded and yes there are two sides to very situation, the only way forward is to discuss things you are not happy with and reach a compromise and not just sever contact.

OMG, I had no intention of suggesting it's an excuse!

I was trying (perhaps failing, sorry) to show that it may not be a case of the 'bad' parents choosing not to break the pattern. It's natural to wonder why they don't want better for their DC & DGC.

But if they're terrified to even see there is a better way - that the pattern is a problem - that question has never occurred to them. It can't.

Understanding why our parents are abusive doesn't excuse the abuse though, nor does it justify risking inflicting similar abuse on our children (their grandchildren). The cycle has to be broken somewhere.

I'm NC with my father, low contact with my mother and NC with my sister.

I did not take these decisions lightly nor is it the first time, but the third. And the previous occasions it was me that had to make all the 'compromise'.

But when my dd was asking 'why don't grandad/grandma/auntie love me?' 'Why do I always get the blame when I wasn't even there when x happened?' It's heartbreaking and at some point enough is enough. And yes I had numerous discussions and tried various anti-conflict tactics they didn't work.

We have resorted to it so that the children don't grow up learning that destructive relationships is something you keep taking. Surely any loving grandparent would want their GCs learning that for their own future relationships?

Do you mind if I pick this up, notanan? I think the answer is - as so often - denial. You know all those bullish people, with hair-trigger tempers, who protest "Well, I was thrashed/buggered/bawled out every teatime, and it never did me any harm!" Anyone with a reasonable amount of sanity looks at them and thinks "Really? The harm it did is written all over your blood pressure!"

But if the events which shaped you, also taught you that you are a faulty being whose challenge is to bravely take the punishment ... you can't admit that those events harmed you. This would make you faulty. And the punishments for being faulty are grave indeed. It's a cognitive Catch-22, whose only possible resolution is to pass along the lessons. This both confirms that all's right with the world, and places you in the position of overlord having served your time as the underdog.

I've said "It never did me any harm, haha" numerous times, while behaving in some outlandish way and choosing not to examine the of all around me. It took a breakdown for me to eventually realise my childhood had not been a bit strict, but seriously abusive. Years on, I'm still bumping up against the errors & misconceptions it left me with. This is not an easy road to travel and, actually, I don't blame anyone for ignoring the signpost!

Those of my siblings who've had children - half of us didn't; funny that - have repeated my parents' errors, although less harshly. They cannot discuss this: too painful or shameful. Our parents, in turn, were less harsh than their own (and they were harsh!) Naturally I could write pages about this, but it isn't the place and I'm already writing a small dissertation.

Denial is wrong. It's foolish, damaging to the denier as well as all around them, and it's a trap. But I can empathise with the reasons for it. It is very rarely an active choice: it's a defence mechanism, and feels like survival.

Visitor from MN here.

Shocking thread, strange to see the word 'fog' used in a subversion of what it means to those of us who have experienced parents/grandparents like this.

It is reassuring to read not all gransnetters are like this (are other gransnetters embarrassed by these posters? Their views on this issue?)

Thread on mn was not about gn and gn wasn't even mentioned for several pages. That said surely gn is as much open for discussion as anything else online?

And yes the use of real names etc is worrying.

I think Elegran has summed up 'that' thread perfectly and explained why most Gransnetters steer well clear of it. I hope that Mumsnetters understand this and do not think that the views expressed there are representative of the attitudes of the vast majority of Gransnetters.

Chances are that todays DIL is tomorrows MIL

If my relationship with my DCs were to for some reason to become destructive and harmful and make them overwhelmingly unhappy without resolution, I hope they would remove themselves from it.

Because I hope that they won't accept an unhealthy relationship from anyone : Bullies at school, bullies at work, future partners, future ILs, each other (actually for me that's the saddest possibility! sadder than losing them myself, I hope they always have each other) strangers in the street.. or us if we somehow turned out that way.

Because I love them and hope that they have learnt from our example what a healthy relationship is, and that it's okay to leave an unhealthy one no matter who it is with, even if it's with your parents

I am MiL and a Dil
My PiL cut all contact with me for 10yrs
My crime?
I would not let them take my DC out in their car as they refused to put in child car safety seats in to their car even though we offered to pay for them
My DH agreed with me but was the only child so was not ostrised as I was.
In that time I encouraged my DH to take the DC every other weekend to see their GPs.
I never spoke ill of my inlaws in front of my children and they were totlally unaware of the situation.
This was never resolved but after my FiL suffered a heart attack and I went to visit him in hospital , there was a slight thaw.
I now look after my MIL who has dementia.

On the other side of the coin I bend over backwards to agree with my DIL.
The bank of mum and dad has come in to play several times. With no repayments expected.
My DS ,DIL and my soon to be 1yr old DGS lives 11/2 hrs away.
I have only seen my GS on three very short occasions.
Every time we asked to go or invite them to us, there is always an excuse.
We are the only GPs. And our DGS doesn't know us.
I'm not an emotional person but I have cried a plenty.
We are very lucky to have a DD and 2 DGS who we see all the time.
But they have never seen their baby cousin.

Chances are that todays DIL is tomorrows MIL.

"The response from the poster (if I remember rightly) was on the lines that they did not mind being identified so that everyone knew how they had been treated!"

In a situation like that it is hardly surprising that the child(ren?) have been kept away, how could they not? if the GPs main focus is to get at the child's parents even when it's at the detriment of the child and their privacy/safety/security then that is exactly the kind of thing that can make a parent feel that the only way to keep the child safe and preserve some sort of peaceful life is NC.

there were direct quotes from here over there (and there have in the past MN has been quoted unfavourably on the estranged thread). The MN thread itself and the general discussion there still stands. The direct quoting from another forum ones are gone.

People have posted to say exactly that - the children can be identified! In fact, with a small effort, the whole families and where they live and work could be identified. The response from the poster (if I remember rightly) was on the lines that they did not mind being identified so that everyone knew how they had been treated!

I agree that GNGQ should delete anything that identifies a child - but it would mean someone reporting that post unless HQ actively monitored and moderated, which is not their policy. I wonder how the poster(s) would react to their post(s) being reported and deleted? More evidence of how they are victimised? It is possible.

Why did they delete it? It wasn't that bad! [confusd]

Are they desperate to avoid the wars of the nets? Shame. Could have been fun.

Married2BlackSheep I have read your posts and they contain some good advice to those whose are estranged (or in danger of becoming estranged) I would like to think that you might be of help to the posters on that thread, and I almost posted suggesting that you put a message on it yourself from the "other side" - but I fear it would have no effect at all on the eentranched positions that some people have got themselves into. Others have tried and failed. I suspect that even a professional counsellor speaking privately one-to-one would not succeed in some cases.

At any rate the direct quotes from GN have been deleted on MN.

It's a shame that the GN admins don't do the same about the estranged thread posts that make children and 3rd parties identifyable (I mean real names, not usernames).

It's just another example on there of the children's best interests not being the priority for those posters.

Elgran your post is somewhat reassuring.

I'ld like to think that there are more than the one poster I saw who are NC with their adult kids and GCs who perhaps at least, even though it's sad, appreciate removing children from witnessing volitile unhealthy dynamic (without appointing blame either way for the volitility, either way, whoever is responsible for it in the relationship, the children are better off not being caught up in the middle of it). So that the children can at least have some peace.

I'ld like to think that there are some GPs who are NC with adult children and GCs who would use any future contact as an opportunity to move forward and build bridges, rather than to get the children "on their side".

In fact I'ld like to think that my imagined NC GPs are mostly like that and was disturbed that the gransnet thread implied otherwise

notanan I haven't looked at Mumsnet, but if it is about the GN thread I think it is, it has been going for a long time, mostly with a small group of grans who give each other support and sympathy.

Various "outsiders" have posted from time to time, giving their opinions and suggestions, but unless they were totally in accord with the "regular" posters, their contributions were unwelcome, and thought to be attacks. Anyone who said that their own relationship with their family is quite different, and points out areas where a different approach might work better was told that they just don't know what it is like, or how their children make these posters suffer. People have actually been accused of deliberate cruelty and nastiness for posting anything that doesn't reinforce their feeings that they have been victimised.

As a result, there is now only one viewpoint on that thread. Everyone knows better than to try to influence them. Count the different poster names - I think you will find that the same few do 99% of tghe posts.

how can the other posters (other than the one exception) really have expected any sort of healthy relationship between them and their GCs could be facilitated when they're so consumed with venom and revenge towards their adult children or DILs/SILs?

Why would anyone want to put children in the middle of a dynamic like that? they're much better out of it.

That's why the tread was such a sad read. It showed me that NC will have to be permanent and perhaps even stricter to protect the kids.

Fairydoll it's not a generalisation, its a comment on that particular thread. There are whole pages about how they feel towards their adult children. It's all there in black and white. Only one poster stands out as an exception. Which is sad. I expected more than one :-(