Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

"Yes of course Wendy, but that's the point, the kids get a brief explaination that doesn't assign blame or "sides", things like "some times grown ups don't get along, you aren't best friends with every person in your whole school are you?" That sort of thing."

Ok, I get this ^^. I believe I misunderstood you before. I thought you were suggesting that parents and kids never talk about the situation, at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

"IMO, there is a WORLD of difference betwen a true memory box: trinkets and keepsakes, as well as maybe some information about the GPs for the kids to find out more about who they were … and a box of emails and "gifts YOUR PARENTS didn't allow us to give you" which are no longer age appropriate and serve no purpose but to make a point about the lack of contact. "

I get this too. And I definitely think that keepsakes and more info about the GPs and their ancestors, etc. are the most meaningful gift that can be given to a "long lost" GC. However, I don't remember reading where anyone said they would save the gifts that they couldn't send (perhaps I missed it). I have seen EGPs talk about saving birthday cards and such, but I think - I hope - that's more of a way of just saying, "We never forgot about you" than, "Look at what your parents didn't let us send you!" Maybe I'm wrong, of course.

But I'm a little confused, ladies, as to whether we're talking about a GC seeking out their EGPs as an adult, or GC reconnecting with those GPs because the parents decided to reach out. I don't think it's ever a good idea to try to drive a wedge between parents and their DSs or DDs, whether those DSs or DDs are adults or not (nor do I think that any of the EGPs here would deliberately try to do that). But, IMO, there are somethings the GC can handle better as adults than when they are kids.

Fairydoll

Smileless. Very good posts this evening, there's nothing I can add.

notanan. I admit I may have the wrong 'impression' of you but reading through your posts you seem very embittered.. You seem to be desperately picking apart others posts in order to justify your own situation. You don't have to. You have stated several times that your mother has made it impossible to have a good relationship with you (or your DC). I think everyone accepts that, however, you don't lose an opportunity to suggest that NC between a GP and their AC must be the GP's fault and then imply that the GP's should just accept that fact and move on with their life. That's too black and white, sorry. I don't know what you have left to 'prove.'

I don't want to offend you but, in my opinion, your posts totally lack empathy.

I didn't say you were all over GN, shouting about grans, I asked why if you're so convinced that denying your children their GM, you feel the need to constantly justify your actions. If you regard the other thread as unpleasant, perhaps that's because knowing that GP's through no fault of their own are being denied their GC makes you feel uncomfortable.

You don't want to see any "good in the other side", it's there but you've chosen to be blind to it. Perhaps you could give a specific example of a GM not talking about a "benign type of memory box", and if you can perhaps you should consider that because a memory box that contains information from the GP's perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing. The GC wont receive these boxes until they're adults and can make up their own minds about the right or wrongness of being deprived of GP's, is that what worries you?

I agree that "good parents make good decisions" but deciding that GP's who are no threat to the welfare and well being of their GC are not allowed any contact is not a good decision made by a good parent.

But you are involving your children in your decision by denying them their GP's and if your children know it is for their benefit and in their best interests you must have told them why. Your children are fortunate that the answers they receive to their questions are honest and factual. The GC I am referring too, whose GP's have done nothing as parents or GP's to be kept away fro their GC, are not likely to be on the receiving end of honest responses to their questions.

You are accusing some GP's of only focusing on their side of the argument and that's all you ever do.

I'm discussing it in an appropriate place and not involving the children, can't you see that vital distinction? I do not try to get the kids involved in "my side" at all, they know it is what it is, the ask factual questions (not that often TBH, she's not really missed), we answer honestly and factually.

I'm not all over gransnet shouting about grans smileless… I'm on a thread about a thread I'm on on mumsnet. Mumsnet EAC were being watched and discussed on the GN thread long before that MN thread was even started (and it was started about something else anyway). It then developed into a support thread including discussing the unpleasantness on the GN thread (not GN in general). So, bit rich asking me why I'm here, there has been a cross over on both sides. I personally came over here hoping to see some good in the other side, I was disappointed.

"The ones on the thread are more like the latter"shock. How would you know notanan, oh you don't know because you're not a nan The contents are being talked about on the thread. That's how I "know" that they're not talking about the nice benign type of memory box which I'm sure loads of nans on wider gransnet make to help their GC know more about that side of the family etc.

I'm curious, why as a mother, if you're so convinced that by keeping your children away from their GP's you're doing the right thing
I'm a parent and we can't just do nothing and let whatever happens happens when it comes to our kids.
Good parents make decisions, we decide about how late to allow our kids to be out wih their friends, we decide which sleep-overs seem safe and which ones sound like more of an "open house" with older siblings bringing friends and other substances.. we sometimes have to be the "bad guy" for the sake of our kids. We decide on internet use and boundaries/house rules/filters/parental controls. We balance freedom with safety all the time. That's just being a parent, you have to make the best call you can at the time. NC with GPs is no different, it's being a parent and doing what you have to do with the choices you have on front of you at the time.

"The ones on the thread are more like the latter". How would you know notanan, oh you don't know because you're not a nan are you and you don't yet know that instantaneous out pouring of love that as a GM you feel when you see and hold your GC for the first time, and you don't know and I hope you never do, the feeling of having your heart ripped out when that child is taken out of your life.

For someone who says "it shouldn't be about who shouts loudest about their side of things", that's all you seem to do. You are accusing some GP's of only focusing on their side of the argument and that's all you ever do.

I'm curious, why as a mother, if you're so convinced that by keeping your children away from their GP's you're doing the right thing, are you on a site for GM's shouting very loudly in support of your actions.

You have a very one dimensional view of estrangement notanan. As my earlier post demonstrated, sometimes estrangement happens because the AC's partner uses undue influence to keep the AC away from their parents and extended family.

When this is the case, it is the parents who are 'dragging their kids' into the situation, not the GP's. Our family and friends, most of whom have known us since our estranged son was a small child, are utterly bewildered and shocked at the way we've been treated. They knew us when we were a close knit and loving family.

You say that "wouldn't any genuinely decent GP's just focus on getting to know their GC if they were re united rather than making it an us v's them thing" them. There are thousands if not more "genuinely decent GP's" who want nothing more than to have contact with their GC but due to the bitterness and spite of those children's parents, are unable to do so.

I'm sorry Maggiemaybe that you never got to know your mother's side of the family. We have left our GS's memory box to them in our wills, and as you'd have liked to have been able to see anything that your grand mother left for you, I hope that when the time comes our GS's will be of age, and their parents wont be able to keep their memory box from them.

Parents who deny their children their GP's should be prepared for questions when their children are older Wendysue. Of course it's better for us estranged parents to try and re build our relationships with our estranged children, but when they don't want to know, there's nothing we can do.

Aaah good old Freud. Much maligned and I agree at times long winded but he was the father of psychoanalysis, the first to identify and see the significance of the sub conscious. Of course he had his own 'issues', a controlling father which is often lost when he's always identified as 'blaming the mother'.

At least in our situation Mr. S. and I seem to being blamed equally by our ES for our predicament, so I suppose that's something to be 'grateful for'.

This is the exactly the kind of thing EAC walk away from, the Us Vs you rubbish. It's what we spare our children from by going NC in the first place.

It shouldn't be about who shouts loudest about their "side of things", it's not about winning, parents Vs GPs, it's about the kids and keeping things peaceful and happy for them. Anyone who focuses on their own "side of the arguement" rather than that if the EAC decide to risk a re-establishment of contact really doesn't deserve for contact to be re-established and it would be a mistake to put the kids through that.

Yes of course Wendy, but that's the point, the kids get a brief explaination that doesn't assign blame or "sides", things like "some times grown ups don't get along, you aren't best friends with every person in your whole school are you?" That sort of thing.

Not reems of documented evidence of "our side" of our emails to the GPs or our attempts to sort out ground rules before NC.. the kids do not need to be involved in any of that! We do not show the kids our side of all that grown-up nonsense, and are not relishing in saving it to "prove our side" when the kids would be old enough to read it, but won't from our point of view have to

IMO, there is a WORLD of difference betwen a true memory box: trinkets and keepsakes, as well as maybe some information about the GPs for the kids to find out more about who they were … and a box of emails and "gifts YOUR PARENTS didn't allow us to give you" which are no longer age appropriate and serve no purpose but to make a point about the lack of contact.

The ones on the tread are more like the latter. And it just makes me as an EAC feel the need to strengthen the resolve to keep them away! Because if they were any beneift to the children in the first place, their focus IF contact was re-established, should surely be on getting to know the kids and building bridges not on highlighting divides and involving the kids in all that

If the GCs ask, in the future, what's wrong with just answering them? What positive outcome can come from the reply being "welllll, let me just fetch all the the things I wasn't allowed to give you to show you what your parents kept from you" ?

Even though I am a grandmother myself, I would have appreciated knowing why my own grandmother was cut off by my mother. My sister and I never saw a photo of her, or of DM's father or siblings, or had any of our questions answered by our mother. I'm sure we would never have been given any "memory box", letters etc had GM tried to pass any on, but I would like to have seen them. I loved my mother dearly, but she decided for us that we weren't to learn anything about her family of origin which was, after all, ours as well. Perhaps she was protecting us from something as children, but we'll never know, will we? By the time we were old enough to find out for ourselves, her parents and siblings were dead.

Just want to add, the GC might ask Granny why she "disappeared." But better, IMO, to say, "that's between your parents and me," etc" it never involved you."

Notanan, 2 or the comments you've quoted are mine, so I'm going to reply to them here. Bear in mind, I don't have firsthand experience with the situation, so I'm just talking based on what I've seen with others, read online and so on...

1. I understand that one point of going NC may be to "avoid the kids being further dragged into things with the GPs." But I might not have realized that if I hadn't been reading about these issues online for a long time. And some EGPs might not realize it either, so their imagination may do all sorts of things.

But it's hard for me to imagine that kids don't ever ask, "Why don't we see Granny, anymore?" or questions like that, even if just once in a while. In fact, IRL, I know 2 families who were in this situation. And in both cases, the kids asked and the parents did give them a brief explanation. (I know cuz the parents told me, in one case, the AC in the other.) Also, on other sites, when confronted with this possibility, I've seen parents say they would "tell the truth" but "simply" ("Granny refused to follow our rules" or whatever the issue was). The might not "spend time" discussing it, but some parents do give a brief explanation.

2. Ok, maybe an adult GC will get a different perspective after talking to the GP. But that doesn't mean they'll turn against their parents. It might lead to some questions, but hopefully, parents are prepared for that.

Still, yes, I agree, better for GP to focus on rebuilding their relationship with the GC. That's what I would do (I think - but again, I don't really know).

I don't know but I imagine that, in most cases, it's more about wanting to defend themselves than to get "revenge" or cause trouble between the GC and their parents. I think it's very natural for EGPs to worry that their GC will believe they just abandoned the family or that the parents will speak ill of them
- The point of going NC is to avoid the kids being further dragged into things with the GPs, so why are the EGPs assuming that the ACs are then spending their time telling the kids (^who they decided are better off without these GPs^ ) about "their side". TBH you might as well stay in contact if you're going to do that!
We go NC to keep the kids OUT OF IT. not to drag them into it. So it's makes the heart sink that the EGPs out there are so focused on getting their side across to he kids - why? I tell "my side" to my husband, my best friends, and relevant chats on mn/gn…. I'm not filing evidence of "my side" for the kids.. that would not be fair on them and would defeat the whole purpose of going NC

"Besides, whether or not a GC accepts that view depends a lot on their own relationship with their parents. If it's good, then they're likely to reject GP's efforts to vilify their parents and see it as proof that their parents were right. If they side with GP against their parents, then, IMO, something is wrong in their relationship with their parents, anyway."
- You don't have to have a problem with your parents to be affected by someone telling you that there's a "them or us" sitation and they need to know "their side". Wouldn't any genuinely decent GPs focus on just getting to know their GCs if they were re-united, rather than make it a "us Vs your parents" thing?

*notanan - I've been following your use of "lingo" or "jargon" and it seems that Freud has come back in fashion again. Following a long period, as in my day, when Behaviourism was the favoured approach. Then CBT , which I think is still popular.
The trouble with Freudianism is that it's so long-winded.*
- I don't know what any of this means, can anybody translate?

obieone you've had a narrow escape. Just thought on..... SiL can sand for son-in-law or sister-in-law - this woman married my BiL, so became my sister-in-law.

Yes, another excellent post Wendysue. I have quite a lot already for my GS's memory box; little gifts never received by them and birthday and Christmas cards. I always buy two of each, one is sent and the other kept so at least one day they'll know that we loved them and never forgot them. We also have copies of all correspondence.

It isn't about trying to cause problems between our GC and their parents, it's about letting them know, even if we are no longer here, that they were loved and missed.

On the 'cut out of a loved ones' life' thread, there have been some lovely posts from JustStrollingBy. She shared with us her experience of an abusive marriage and how the influence of her husband resulted in her losing all contact with her mum and other family members.

Now no longer in that relationship she has reunited with her mum and they're enjoying that special mother and child relationship once more. Not only has she shone a small light into the darkness of the regular posters on that thread, she has highlighted how damaging an AC's choice of partner can be to their family relationships.

We've thanked her profusely for sharing her story and for the kindness she showed us all.

Anya - your first paragraph brings chills to me. I nearly had a close family member end up in the situation you describe. Thankfully, for some reason [could have been he started liking another girl], he was the one to call off the engagement, not that that was without problems.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Yogagirl!

Just lost my post don't know what I do to loss it!

Wendysue Good post, what you say is quite right

Tricia exactly my thoughts 'long-winded!' lol

As for that LeoKitty -tonight lol

ps - a sense of humour doesn't do any harm either. But again, not everyone has that blessing.

Fairydoll2030 - your post of yesterday at9.16 pm.
I so agree with you about keeping a distance between the older generation and ACs. It can easily become over-intense.
Some might call me too detached - I encouraged independence in mine from an early age, they don't tell me all their problems, and I don't tell them ours, but we still communicate. I was the same with my parents.
But we're all different many won't be able to manage that degree of detachment.
notanan - I've been following your use of "lingo" or "jargon" and it seems that Freud has come back in fashion again. Following a long period, as in my day, when Behaviourism was the favoured approach. Then CBT , which I think is still popular.
The trouble with Freudianism is that it's so long-winded.

I've known two very different cases which have led to estrangement. The first was a family member who married a very controlling woman (my SiL) who was determined from the offset to take him away from his family. This she did and all contact was broken, and gradually the man became indoctrinated and was just as bad as she was. My MiL never knew her youngest GD. My DH lost all contact with his brother.

The second was a first-time grandmother who went into a situation with a new-born baby and despite being asked to leave them alone for their first few nights together as a family, rolled up at about 10 pm and therefore had to be put up for the night. She was turfed out by her irate SiL next morning and told not to come back.

Each situation is different but that doesn't stop the pain and heartbreak

About EGPs wanting to tell GC their side IF GC ever seeks them out...

I don't know but I imagine that, in most cases, it's more about wanting to defend themselves than to get "revenge" or cause trouble between the GC and their parents. I think it's very natural for EGPs to worry that their GC will believe they just abandoned the family or that the parents will speak ill of them. IMO, it's human nature to want to "set the record straight" or what you (general) think of as straight.

In most cases, I get the impression that the EGP just wants to show their GC that they love/have always loved them and never wanted to be estranged. So they keep such "documentation" as copies of cards they sent (in case GC never received them) or cards, etc. they would have sent if everything didn't get returned. Some of them may keep some evidence that they tried to see the GC over the years, just to show they didn't forget about them or give up. Sure, there are a few GPs who will viciously try to make the parents look bad (no one here, I don't think). But I really think they're in the minority.

Besides, whether or not a GC accepts that view depends a lot on their own relationship with their parents. If it's good, then they're likely to reject GP's efforts to vilify their parents and see it as proof that their parents were right. If they side with GP against their parents, then, IMO, something is wrong in their relationship with their parents, anyway.

Again, I may be wrong about all this. But while I'm at it, just want to add that I think GPs run the risk of having GC say, "But if you didn't want the estrangement, why didn't you just follow my parents' instructions when you babysat me?" (or whatever the issue is). Just as parents run the risk, when they CO, that, someday, their DC will hear a different side of the story. The way I see it, these are the chances people often take in these situations.

He sounds like a master manipulator, Leo (sigh). So sad.

IMO, you've done all you could for now. Moving forward, good luck with your own life and enjoy planning your wedding!

Thanks for the advice Wendysue, we was aware of mental health issues when she was younger and she did have counceling. I think it stems from our dad leaving when she was a toddler.

Her dh used to say she was a bad mum and kids was in dirty clothes, house wasn't as clean as he liked, he said she would argue with him when he came in from work. When he called me up for help, he even had me convinced he was a victim and he convinced some family members also but since nc with them I have realised what game he played.

It is sad losing two siblings, especially with the wedding coming up but I've decided to leave the ball in their court as I can't continue to always try and reach out to them. I have told them they can always call me and I would even be happy to meet for a coffee if they want to chat.