Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

Congratulations on your forthcoming marriage, LeoKitty! I wish you and your FDH all the best!

I'm so glad you've decided to take notanan's advice if your sister contacts you. For all the reasons notanan said but also this: If she's partly a rebellious type, as I suspect, and you tend to be more of the "good daughter" (for want of a better expression), then your defending your mother is just likely to trigger the rebel in her and backfire on you.

Actually, I've been thinking about you and yours all day. Just some loosely related thoughts... I don't know if you're still reading or not, but I'll just throw them out there, in case you are and also for your mom if she's wants to read them...

- IMO, no one really "falls in with a bad crowd" - they CHOOSE it. But why would your sister make that choice?

- If they were truly a bad crowd, then I imagine there must have been some drinking going on even then (perhaps I'm wrong, of course). And maybe some drugs? (again, I may be so wrong - don't want to make any false accusations). This certainly would explain some of her uglier behavior, such as punching that girl for no reason. You say yourself, she's charming - UNTIL she's drinking

- .But why would she go for drinking, etc? Part of her rebellion,perhaps?

- Or maybe sis was self-medicating? Maybe she had mental health issues even then, the family was "too close to the forest" to see it/deal with it ? And sis didn't know what was wrong or what to do so she resorted to alcohol (and maybe drugs)? And that's why she joined this crowd - cuz they provided this stuff? Maybe not... just my thoughts..

- Despite whatever issues she has with BIL, she may feel he "saved" her, in a way, cuz he helped her get professional help and the right kind of meds? You and your mother may not agree with the dosage, and sis may have her doubts, but she still may feel that he is trying to help her. I don't know if you believe that she suffers from depression or if you've ever acknowledged the possibility. But that may be something she needs from you people if she's ever going to consider reconciling.

- NONE of that means BIL isn't controlling, etc. Could be he took advantage of your sister's mental health issues, thinking, "ahah! here's a person I can control if she's on enough meds!" Or not... But either way, sis may be grateful to him for recognizing/seeing her illness, which maybe nobody else did (but then again, maybe you and yours did see it, I don't know... just throwing out ideas...)

Anyhow, I'm so sorry both she AND your brother have CO your whole family. My heart aches for you people - losing 2 AC/siblings - Wow. I can only hope and pray that one day you are all united.... Sorry this is so long...

I do worry from time to time if she is safe and if my niece and nephew are safe too.
But I don't know now where they live and have no contact number for her. The only thing is the email but that is shared and monitored by the husband. I am reluctant to contact her because of the amount of abuse I have received from them in the past. He has probably convinced her that if she tries to leave then she will never see the kids.

My bil acted very buddy with my brother, even calling him his brother. So they easily influenced him to side with them.
My bil tried it with me too (calling me sis etc) but it didn't fool me and I still refused to side with them against my mum.
My brother and sister have now disowned all family members apart from my dad and uncle. (Who happen to live abroad).

My sister was like jekyl and Hyde, she had an alluring charm that people are drawn to but as soon as she drinks she became a monster.

I think the situation with my mum and sister escalated quickly and go out of control. I don't think anything could have been done to prevent it.

I'm getting married later this year and have a feeling I may hear from her. I've taken notanan's advice on board and will listen to her instead of jumping straight to my mum's defence, if I do hear from her. Thanks everyone for your advice.

Leo, came back into say, sadly, your sis may be stuck in the kind of abusive relationship being discussed in the Support thread. You might want to take a look at that and the links that GarlicCake gave to articles that deal with if and how families can help. I hope this isn't the case, of course, but it could be. If so, I'm deeply sorry and hope she gets free of BIL in time.

However, from what you tell us, problems with sis go back long before she met BIL. It looks as if she has been the family "rebel" for a long time. You say that changed after she had a baby and I believe you. And so, maybe she just happened to get with a guy (BIL) who caused her to turn against her family again (sigh). But it could also be that the "rebel" was still in her and he just brought it out. You could gauge that (I think) better than I.

Also, you say they have turned your brother against you and your DM, is that right? So sad - but there must be a reason he's siding with them, even if he's totally wrong. Unfortunately, it seems your family is split in half right now - I'm so deeply sorry. The tricky part is, though, that they (sis, BIL and bro) may feel they are just as "right" about the situation as you and your mother do. Hard to accept but that MIGHT be how they see it.

All you can do now, IMO< is wait and hope/see if sis decides to leave him and reach out to you and DM. I know it's hard to wait and that it might not occur.

Wishing for the best for all. and sending (((hugs)))

LeoKitty, I think your loyalty to and defense of your mother is beautiful! Your sister and her DH sound very difficult and I don't blame you for backing off. You, too, have your own kids and family to think about. And I hate to say it, but getting in the middle between your mother and sister probably won't help . In fact, it hasn't has it?

TBF, I understand about the emails. Sometimes people want to be able to get their thoughts out w/o being interrupted (NOT saying you interrupt, but they might be afraid of that, anyway) and want the other person to have a chance to really read and think about what's said before responding.

I know you say they prefer emails so they can "document" what's being said. But why would they want that? Do they feel that some of what they say gets twisted later on? (Again, NOT saying that you or your mother are actually guilty of that.). Actually, IMO, it's a good idea for you, also, to make sure YOUR words don't get distorted.

Anyhow, I'm so sorry you and yours got "dragged into" their domestic disputes. But for the future, please remember, you don't have to. Even if sis is fleeing from physical or emotional abuse (I hope not) and you or your mother feel you have to take her in, neither of you have to get in the middle, as far as arguing with the guy. Either sis has to handle her marital arguments herself or they need to go to counseling. But honey, you're no marriage/family therapist (or if you are, you still probably can't help your own family).

You and your mother both mean well, I'm sure. But that doesn't always get results. I've never seen anyone get in between DH and DW and succeed except a trained therapist and not always even then. You both need to learn to stay out of the middle, if only for your own sakes.

So sorry for all you've been through. Glad you're stepping back though. It's time (maybe passed time). Sis may leave her marriage/come to you people of her own volition someday if BIL is really overly controlling. But she has to figure that out for herself.

Wow! So much more going on in this thread since I've been away from it (only a short time)! Just catching up now. But want to say a few things before I continue reading...

Notanan, I'm not sure if you deliberately only reviewed the negative responses to your story b/c of the point you were making or if you happened to miss the more supportive ones. In one of my posts, anyway, I fully supported your protecting your children over concern for your mom's feelings. IMO, your first responsibility is to your kids, whether any other family member gets hurt or not.

And, IMO, you have to take care of yourself, as well. After all, how can you be at your best for your family or your own life if you let yourself be constantly hurt? So though I wish it didn't have to be this way, I think you did the right thing when you CO your mom.

Fairydoll, yes, very intense and draining, and that was an example of exchanges with her on a good day

It wasn't born out of living in each others pockets though, in fact I didn't live with her at all for a chunk of my childhood. We never had one of those relationships where we phoned regularly for a chat. I phoned regularly (regularly ^for us^) just to see if she was okay when we were in contact, but they weren't enjoyable phone calls and usually at best went the way of that example conversation.

In a way you're right in so much as when it was ever (temporarily) working okay-ish, it was short sporadic meet-ups. Anything more involved/intense decended horribly and was a bit devastating. But towards the end even a quick coffee or drive to the country with the kids would erupt.

It is sad. I really don't understand how she could be that way to the very people she claimed to love. Its less upsetting and confusing when I remind myself that that's the only way she knows how to love.

Since going NC I have later found out that the odd "good times" weren't so good after all :-( Such as things she was saying to relatives and friends when we though we were getting along with her. I can't really go into too much detail about all that because it would be identifiable, but it sort of involved her creating rifts between us and other members of the family, all the while smiling at us and appearing to be getting along.

'notanan

Your post last night at 23.42.

Leokitty will probably keep trying. It's human nature. Often relationships bring pain but we keep trying on the premis that 'while there's life there's hope.'

I was interested to read earlier yesterday what I think was supposed to be a 'typical' conversation with your mum. It all seemed a bit intense and reminds me of what I observed of conversations between my son's partner and her parents. Very OTT.

I think that's what happens when mums and AC are over involved in each other's lives. A little distance, physically or emotionally can be very beneficial.
Just my experience.

No, I acknowledged her issues and tried to resolve them.

For instance, one stated that we hardly see the kids (which wasn't true). I actually dropped some hours at work to have more time to visit.

From my point of view she was hard work and her husband often involved us in their domestic disputes.

I haven't completely closed the door on her but am not prepared to go through it all again, especially that now I am a mum too.

The abusive texts would normally occur after she was drunk down the pub mostly fuelled by her husband

I just think, whatever (clearly not good things) are going on with the husband, I would find it impossible to communicate with people who told me (whether in so many words or not) "oh that's not you talking" and brushed off whatever I said as just that.

I would probably eventually give up trying

Leokitty, thank you for your input. I don't know which Gransnetter is your mum (nor do I want to, for her own privacy), but it is not often we hear how estrangement affects other family members.

(of course, just because there's still a chance, doesn't mean you have to keep trying either if its a relationship that doesn't bring you anything but pain)

It was just an idea, as I said hard to tell through a few forum posts, it just sounded like although she was speaking/texting/emailing..what she was actually saying was being dismissed (or atributed to someone else). So just putting it out there incase it rang true, if it doesn't', disregard it.

I still think it sounds like she's low contact with you even though she's given up on a relationship with your mother. I think there's a chink of light there. it could go either way, she might end up fully no contact ever again with you too… but as it stands it doesn't sound (again with limited info) as if she's drawn the same line under your relationship as she has with your mother.

"There's no struggling to be heard" before she disowned me and others, we had many discussions over the phone/text, the email is so everything is documented.

If you knew some of the things she did to people, I don't think you would be feeling sorry for her. Say punching my brother's new gf in the back of the head while she was asleep, when the poor girl had never met her.

The abusive texts would normally occur after she was drunk down the pub mostly fuelled by her husband, who clearly only wanted his family around and not hers.

Anyway, I just wanted to show my view from the sister who was disowned also, I won't be commenting any further.

What I'm really trying to figure out, is whether your sister is met with a wall of "Oh you don't really mean that, that's your husband talking" if she tries to express her grievances.

I will say that from your point of view (maybe not your mothers), it sounds like she's low contact rather than no contact.

If she's still expressing hurt/anger towards you then she still has hope that you might hear it. So there's still a chink of light there, but maybe only for you, it sounds like she's given up hoping for it from your mother.

I mean this as genuine advice from the "other side" because I get the impression that although it's sporadic and has been failing, there's still a wish on her part to engage with you. Here is what I would do (and you don't have to in any way value or take my opinion). Okay here it is:
If she's angry, hear her words, if she's lashing out, hear her hurt. Don't attribute it to her "crowd" or her partner at the time.. let her be heard and credit her with her own voice. Don't deny it, if she speaks about her experience of your mother - don't contradict, it is possible that you had a good experience of your mother and she didn't. How she experienced her is her experience and it's valid. Just let her have a voice and don't shut it down. That doesn't mean you have to AGREE, just listen and hear.

It does not sound like she has a great time with her relationship with her partner, but it also doesn't sound like she can go the other direction back either, where she's seen as someone who can't speak or act for themselves, and thus has no voice in the family.

I mean it's hard to tell from what you've written because it's just a small amount of information in text. But I think there's a chance she's still hoping for a relationship with you, she just has no voice.

received drunk abusive texts saying what? (don't answer if it makes you identifiable of course)

all she has done is spit back in her face in what way? what does she say when she rejects your mother's input?

Sounds like she's had a truly awful time

What do you think led up to her destructive behaviour? Has she ever mentioned why she was unhappy/drawn to that as a teen?

I understand the email only, particularly if you're struggling to be heard.

Am I reading this right? when she's pleasant/agreeable, you think that's "her", but if she says anything negative about you or your mother, you don't, you think she's just saying that because she's been told to?

I have offered to meet in person to resolve the issues and even offered to set up a Skype call to discuss the situation. They only wanted to communicate via email which will never resolve and it didn't.

My sister fell into a bad crowd at a young age and was a handfull to deal with. Let's say I had many trips picking her up from police stations for getting into fights. She did calm down after she fell pregnant but her behaviour flared up again after meeting her husband and we got dragged into their domestic disputes and often received drunk abusive texts.

I have actually stepped back and decided I want nothing more to do with her and her drama and now think it's a blessing in disguise she disowned everyone. I have told my mum to do the same but unfortunately her heart still aches for them and yes I still think she is selfish and immature.
My mum did a lot for her and all she has done is spit back in her face.

That particular MN thread has grown to gather people who have in common living with a narcissist parent so the conversation will of course be disproportionately about that.

There are probably other threads where people have gone NC for other forms of abuse: DV, drugs, sexual abuse etc. But that particular thread I think assumes a baseline understanding or reading around of NPD just due to the mix of posters on that particular one.

yeah I can absolutely see why it wasn't clear

in fact it's not a case of feeling "second best" because in situations with a narcissist the "golden child" is actually the least desirable situation in the whole family, the less favoured "scapegoat" gets a way out.. so it's kind of the other way around, you are better off "under the radar" or out of favour than being the chosen golden child in a narcissists family.

Because the version of "love" in these homes is very unhealthy. You don't want to be at the forefront of it

Sorry notanan I probably did misunderstand ( I certainly don't get the lingo as you rightly point out) I just didn't like the thought of someone feeling "second best" in life as sometimes (and I accept not always) they could havve misjudged the situation (I misjudged my MIL and it wasn't until I got older and realised I had become her that I finally caught on to where she had been coming from)

Crafting there's a bit of "in lingo" going on on the MN thread
I can see how you misunderstood. It's not about favouritism in the common sense (my sister got a car for her 17th and I only got a phone)
That's not what is being discussed on there. it's about the Narcissists use of Scapegoat children and Golden children as a form of abuse.
TOTALLY differernt from the general concept of favouritism

I have read this thread and the mumsnet thread and have no comment to make about estranged families either way. There is a comment on mumsnet about so and so being the favourite or favoured child, or one child being loved more than others. Whilst I am sure that in some cases this is true, I would just like to say to some mumsnetters that they could be wrong in their thinking. I am very fortunate that I have loving contact with all my children and grandchildren and in laws but I do know that it is possible for children to misunderstand the actions of their parents and assume favouritism where there is none. Sometimes actions can be misunderstood. Sorry this has nothing to do with being estranged or in no contact with families just that adult children can be loved by their parents much more than they realise. Your relationship with your children is different to the relationship with your parents (as it should be because your children are the most important thing) but you are your parents children and are possibly loved more than you realise.

as my sister was postive when we met and I heard she had negative views afterwards

Don't you ever sit through something and smile and nod at the time.. then when you walk away you think back and think "hang on! that's not right"?

I'm a bit like that, I'm unfortunately one of those blessed people who come up with clever retorts on the spot! If someone is mean to me in person in the moment I'll usually just sort of be agog or be baffled.. then later when I'm recounting the event I'll think of all kinds of replies I wished I've given.

I feel like you don't give your sister a voice in your story. You call her actions selfish and immature… but if she tries to express an opinion you dismiss it as probably someone else's opinions (your BILs)

It just reads as if if she ever tries to discuss your families problems, she is dismissed as either being childish or probably just saying that because your BIL probably told her to.

She's not credited with any choices, even her medication (which presumably was prescribed by a professional, who won't have given it to your BIL on her behalf is dismissed, and your mother would wean her off them if she went back (if it's the same poster) and not credit her with chosing when to do that for herself

You sound very angry LeoKitty.

What were your sister's reasons? Was she respected by your parents (I believe respect works both ways. Elders do not earn it just by virtue of age)?

If there are NO reasons and she has been loved and respected all through childhood and beyond then she is unlike any human I've heard of and depression is not really an adequate explanation.

I have read gransnet before, outside of this an the other thread it seems like a good mix/bunch overall.