Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

Hmmm... Fairydoll, I've already given input in this thread. But I guess you mean specifically on the domestic abuse issue.

Fortunately, I don't have any personal experience with it. But I think the professor may be referring to a Restraining Order (RO). I've heard (read maybe?) that you can get one without proof - you have to give a reason, I think, but don't have to prove it cuz not all abuse leaves marks and so forth. Usually - I think - the RO would include the kids, too. So yes, I guess a woman could make a false claim and so keep dad from kids. Or it might just mean limited, supervised visitation - I'm not sure. (Sorry I'm not much help here.) But I hope false charges are few and far between.

But ladies, not all cases of EGPs are about "abuse" as many of us think of it. I've heard of ones that are "just" about repeated offenses, last straw situations and/or continual disrespect. If parents ask a GP, for example, not to give their kids sugar and the GP keeps doing it, and the parents remind them and explain, but they argue/brush it off and just keep doing it, after a while, the parents are likely to cut back visits or even stop them altogether. Then the GP might complain, "They cut me off just because I gave my GC a cookie!" But it really was cuz of a string of offenses, culminating in the cookie incident.

Or it might occur due to a zillion little things - some people call it "death by a thousand paper cuts!"

I'm NOT saying that any of this is the case with any EGPs here. Just saying that it's not always about abuse per se though in its own way, it may be just as understandable.

Just reading this thread, (and the one on MN) makes it easy to see how relationships become so fraught. Here is a perfect illustration of how difficult it can be to see the other side of the story.

Of course, people fall out, get hurt, think they are right, and unless you are in that situation, it's impossible to judge, particularly where families are concerned. And when did a stranger ever convince anyone that they were wrong?

Just respect each other's point of view and wish those affected well for the future. ?

There have been other threads on GN recently, where posters actively encourage someone to cut off contact from a toxic relationship, or tell a GP to alter their attitude and behaviour as it is causing family problems (based on the GP's own description of the situation).
GN is not full of people who feel entitled to grandchildren, but mainly people who are doing their best to get along with their relatives.

"So parents who decide their children will have a better life on the other side of the world and emigrate are bad parents too then FarNorth?"

No, that wouldn't make them bad parents as the children could still have a good relationship with their GPs.

Well this seems to have morphed into a "nasty thread on Gransnet"
One to avoid from now on.

" Do I chance contact again (on the increasingly unlikely off chance of no2) and put my kids at risk...?"

Absolutely not! Protecting the children is priority #1!

I haven't looked at the Mumsnet thread mentioned in the OP for a while, so it may have changed but it didn't strike me as particularly nasty. This thread started with what seemed to me some reasonable comments although I didn't always agree. While I fully appreciate that threads meander, this one now seems to have degenerated and become quite nasty itself.

I know my worth thanks

notgranyet I would reply but you are really not worth the effort. I'll leave it to GNHQ to deal with you.

www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/libel

And I am going to bed shortly so might not respond immediately but I would love to hear from people who feel able to share these kinds of things.

I would be really interested to hear from posters whose children have gone NC with them. What reasons did those children offer, no matter how unreasonable or weird they sound? I'm just interested to know what they actually said to you about it, or what kinds of arguments you had in the days or weeks leading up to the split? Even if they are very minor things that perhaps don't seem worthy of NC or if their reasons seemed completely unreasonable to you. The most interesting thing to me would be if you could tell me the exact things they said to you - eg 'you have come into my house and tidied up our kitchen cupboards even though I didn't ask you to'.

Full disclosure: I am a MN poster who has read the thread there and found some useful stuff in it, though I have not yet posted on it. I am not NC with my parents but have very little contact with them as they live abroad and I do not wish to visit them as often as perhaps they would like. My mother is very very difficult to deal with and I am not at all fond of her (am definitely the scapegoat of the family) and my father is quite passive with respect to her frequently odd behaviour, which has been going on for at least four decades. I am 47 so old enough to have seen quite a lot of life in its various aspects but am not a grandmother. I have a nine year old.

I'm rubbish at posting links but if anyone is interested Google
Realworlddivorce.com and read the comments of a Havard Law professor

Apparently claiming Domestic Abuse is actively encouraged by some attorneys when their clients are seeking a divorce. A court order can often be granted against the husband without the wife ever filing charges of domestic abuse against him.

As mentioned above, these are the comments of a Havard Law Professor, not me and it applies to the USA

Seeing as the thread is getting very nitpicking I just thought I'd throw that into the mix before retiring....

Night all

Yes you're right, "the stick you (can) get if you try to expose abuse isn't a barrel of laughs" and take it from me, being beaten with a stick of false accusations by your own child isn't a barrel of laughs either.

hmmm yeah, there used to be a rhetoric about how women who claimed date rape were liar sluts who put it out and now want to pretend they didn't…. Luckily society has moved on a bit now from that generally. Because people realise that the stick you get if you try to expose abuse isn't a barrel of laughs!

yogagirl on one hand you say you are assuming that your daughter is still on antidepressants, and then you say that your other daughter met with her and gleaned this information. I'm confused, which is it? Anti-depressants aren't addictive, nor do they leave you wandering in a fog for years. The initial settling in period can make you feel a bit 'spacey' but that passes in a couple of weeks. I'm saying this as I wouldn't like others who perhaps need to take this medication to be deterred. Your sil is def a drug user, I agree, but I query whether 'addict' is an appropriate term. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people who use dope and yes, cocaine, on a regular basis as a recreational drug, and who see no harm in smoking dope daily. It can be seen as no worse than a couple of glasses of wine in an evening. I'm not commenting on the legality or morality of this but it is much more common than you might think. You paint a picture of your daughter as being dazed by drugs, with no free will and dominated by a Svengali of a husband, yet she arranged to meet her sister? She was strong enough to do that. Your sil may not actually have had anything to do with any subsequent lack of contact with her sister.

Things may not be as you recall them from 3.5 years ago, there is nothing more certain than change.

Rhinestone and WendySue

We need your input here. I have read that it's not uncommon in the US for women to falsely claim domestic abuse when they split from their husbands. Something to do with making it difficult for dads to see their children. It was just an Internet article so may be an exaggeration or completely untrue. Any thoughts?

I accept there are some GPs who have been cut off who did nothing wrong.
Just like some accused rapists did nothing wrong
And some accused of domestic violence did nothing wrong.

It's such a very small percentage though that it is not relevent or indeed appropriate in general conversation about abuse to say that there's two sides of the story.

But you're not being fair are you * notanan*, your mind is closed to the possibility, no the reality that not all AC who have NC with their parents are telling the truth when they give the reasons why.

I know that abuse happens, I know from personal experience. Not at the hands of my parents but they did nothing about it when they found out what happened; I didn't walk away from them. I know from my own experience that it happens and I know from my own experience when it hasn't, not in any form.

It seems to me that Notanan has come to this thread almost seeking to validate her claims of abuse and her decision to go NC with her mother. I don't think anyone is questioning her situation or doubting her honesty, but what I find odd is that she seems unable or unwilling to accept that there are genuine grans here who give each other support and comfort. Her constant picking apart of others posts is disquieting. She seems very angry.

It's not as if there are hundreds or thousands here claiming their AC have ceased contact and denied them the opportunity to see their grandchildren. Therefore, if we are talking statistics or percentages, then the likelihood that the few (I repeat few) posters on the g/net thread in question have been good parents and are genuinely devastated at the loss of contact and the abuse they have been subjected to from the AC is going to be very high.

Roughly smileless: More than 5%? More than 20%? More than 50%?

To be fair I'll give it a bash:

% People who claim they've been raped who are liars: >1%, Doesn't never happen, but its too infrequent to say "two sides to every story" in general re rape
% People who claim they've been vicim to domestic violence who are liars: >1%, Doesn't never happen, but its too infrequent to say "two sides to every story" in general re domestic violence
% People who claim their parents were too abusive to continue contact with who are liars: >1%, Doesn't never happen, but its too infrequent to say "two sides to every story" in general

Of course, we know that many rapists say their victims are liars,
We know that many partner beaters say their vitims are liars..

I really couldn't say, apart from the thread I regularly post on on GN I go on 2 other sites, one of which is based in America and there are a lot of posters on that one in particular.

There's a lot of literature on the subject of abandoned parents, it's known as a silent epidemic so I would say the % of parents this is happening too is quite high but I wouldn't like to guess at what that % may be.

but you seem to assume that only bad parents are denied contact with their own child and GC and I am simply telling you that that isn't always the case

And how frequently do you think that it isn't the case, as a rough %?

It was a very brave and hard to watch documentary jane
They were beyond the "tough love" stage and having to protect themlseves. There had been several episodes of arson in their home when they had allowed their child in for example. They had other AC and everyone was being constantly damaged by the relationship. It was very very very sad.

I do wonder though whether you make a clear distinction between disliking the person and disliking the behaviour
I mainly dislike the outcome of contact, which is damage and trauma to the whole family.
Should I be satisfied by that?

there is no way she can change to your satisfaction
How many chances should I have given her (if the 100s I gave weren't enough?) How much damage should I allow on our family?

And finally, would you say "you have decided that whatever she does, there is no way she can change to your satisfaction" to someone who had enough of an abusive partner and finally left?

But I have made no assumption notanan, I haven't assumed you are lying, far from it but you seem to assume that only bad parents are denied contact with their own child and GC and I am simply telling you that that isn't always the case.

I haven't claimed that I have a right GarlicCake and in answer to your question, a decent parent wouldn't "choose to walk away from loving interest in their children". Having "in their mind, good reason" isn't necessarily the same as actually having good reason.