Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

notanan I'm replying to your reply to me re the inconsistency of your position. I was actually talking not about the position in which you find yourself, but about the position you are adopting towards your mother, ie you have decided that whatever she does, there is no way she can change to your satisfaction. (I have read your subsequent posts in which you state you have given her many chances). I do wonder though whether you make a clear distinction between disliking the person and disliking the behaviour.

I can't help noticing too, that when you refer to a parent cutting out a child (in the case of drug addiction, your example) it would be to maintain the 'health' of the parent.
I can understand the parent of an addicted child withdrawing support because that support is enabling the addicted lifestyle, and withdrawing that support might be the impetus the child needs to start the road to recovery, but I can't imagine any parent withdrawing from the relationship simply for their own benefit.

Interesting questions, notanan.

I tend to not disbelieve anyone who says there were abused in any way. The small chance of a "cry wolf" situation does not justify the victim blaming

Victims tend to eventually (hopefully) seek to leave their abusers.
Abusers seek out contact with their victims.

NCing makes no sense as a deliberately malicious act. People who want to hurt people generally seek to be around people they can hurt.

a GP who says they're being denied their GC without justification

If we bring this down to basics - nobody has a right to grandchildren or children.
Having children confers no right to have grandchildren.
The idea of justification implies there is a right to grandchildren.
And that anyone denying this 'right' must provide solid reasons, as in a court of law.

I understand it is very hurtful to find you're not allowed to 'have' grandchildren.
It is still not a right.
Justification is not required, except as a courtesy.

Either your child has provided 'justification', which you deemed unsatisfactory:
or they chose not to offer this courtesy.

It can be hurtful, yes. I am sorry you are hurting.

But no-one has denied your right to a grandchild. There's no such right. Therefore, there's no right to justification either.

Going back to notanan's points: What decent parent would choose to walk away from loving interest in their children, free childcare and help with Christmas presents - unless there is, to their mind, good reason to manage without those things?

I'm qustioning the assumption that a large percentage of people who claim abuse are lying about it so that they can go NC for "no justifyable reason"

I'm asking posters what % of AC you think whose reasons for having to NC are lies?

And how does that reconcile with the % of other people who speak up and claim abuse are liars?

Just out of interest? what do you think? 50:50?

what are your best guesses?
% People who claim they've been raped who are liars:
% People who claim they've been vicim to domestic violence who are liars:
% People who claim their parents were too abusive to continue contact with who are liars:

Now let's get this right shall we * notanan* no one is accusing you of lying, it is you who doubts the honesty and integrity of a GP who says they're being denied their GC without justification.

it's just amazing! if this was a thread about any other kind of abuse you wouldn't assume that a large chunk of victims claiming abuse were lying

Do you guys think the same % of people who claim domestic violence are liars too just because the abusive partner says so? or would you tend to believe that it's not something people generally make up for fun?

But if it's AC accusing their parents… suddenly there's "two sides to every story" and many are liars.

As I've already said notanan, the respect given to you on this thread in that your sincerity and honesty is not questioned is sadly not reciprocated. As you say "very few damaging people admit to being damaging".

So parents who decide their children will have a better life on the other side of the world and emigrate are bad parents too then FarNorth?

or is it just those of us who "claim" abuse who are bad parents for NCing?

There aren't really that many people who cry wolf in reality!

"but denying children one half of their extended loving family just because you can, isn't a healthy option either."

That's making the assumption they're loving, not all are and some are abusive (and that includes emotional abuse).

"Not being in contact with an extended family member is not bad parenting."

I can only refer to my own personal experience both in my own family and that of friends. To do anything else WOULD be presumptuous.

My own experience means I don't assume. If I meet someone who doesn't have a relationship with a family member I consider that there's likely a good reason, whichever side of that they're on.

It is bad parenting when there is no justification for it and bad parents have a better chance of being at least better parents, if they remain in contact with their own good parents.

And invariably in cases where there is no justification, the adult children justify their refusal to let GP's see their GC by lying about them

Very few damaging people admit to being damaging. Abusive people generally say "it's all lies"
That's a fact, not a statement of belief or disbelief at anyones individual story

I don't know what you think the benefit is to whatever % of AC who you think are making up their reasons for NC?

When you go NC you basically "take a bullet" for your children. You put yourself in the firing line of whatever the consequences are for the sake of the children. It's not exactly a position of glory is it?
I don't understand what you think the point would be for an AC who had perfectly nice parents deciding to go NC?

I have nice ILs, if DH were to go NC on them…. how would we in any way gain anything at all? name one thing?

It could be if the parent is depriving their child of a good relationship with grandparents.

"A good grandparent is worth their weight in gold but a bad grandparent is not better than no grandparent" and what about bad parents, where do they fit in

Bad parents are bad parents whether they are in contact with their own parents or not? so what's your question?

Not being in contact with an extended family member is not bad parenting.

notanan and notgranyet, no one is doubting the sincerity or honesty of your posts, so why are you determined to doubt those of a GP who has for no justifiable reason been denied any contact whatsoever with her only GC.

"I've never known of that happen" well you have now because I'm telling you about it because it's happened to me. And invariably in cases where there is no justification, the adult children justify their refusal to let GP's see their GC by lying about them.

I haven't had the misfortune of your experiences but that doesn't render me incapable of believing what you say, so why are you both incapable of accepting that bad things happen to good people; that good parents are having their GC used as weapons against them.

"A good grandparent is worth their weight in gold but a bad grandparent is not better than no grandparent" and what about bad parents, where do they fit in.

Lots of parenting decisions are about finding the "lesser evil" out of two imperfect choices.

Of course it would be wonderful if everyone had the choice of a full house good harmonious family.

But if you don't, it's okay to not have the bed case scenario if you've chosen the better option, and that may be NC.

And in my case it's not really much of a hardship on the kids (not now that harmony has been restored by NC). They have other (nice) grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, family friends……

Lots of their friends don't have grandparents around for other reason: death, geography etc.

A good grandparent is worth their weight in gold
but a bad grandparent is not better than no grandparent

Of course the next generation have to be protected from those who could have an adverse affect on them
And the GPs in these cases invariably say the NC is unreasonable or "for no reason"

The vast vast majority of parents are just trying to to their best by their kids. If you know ones who aren't, alert the authorities! But children don't need to be protected from parents who have decided that NC with someone is the best for the family just because the person NCed disagrees with them about the decision

I've never ever known of that happen.

Of course the next generation have to be protected from those who could have an adverse affect on them, but in cases where loving parents who would also be loving GP's are denied any contact for no justifiable reason, and this is happening, it is the parents of these children who are causing harm and who will protect the children in these circumstances?

I don't doubt that there are circumstances where "contact is no longer a healthy option" but denying children one half of their extended loving family just because you can, isn't a healthy option either.

In my experience the behaviours were clearly pointed out, not just by myself but other family members, counsellors etc.

As what notanan said, an apology is not really an apology if nothing changes.

We (dd and I) would get an apology and then within hours the behaviour would be repeated, sometimes worse behaviour of the same type. So it was clear what was said had not been taken on board. Even when people like counsellors made suggestions of other ways to behave nothing changed.

I too am old enough to be a grandmother, have been dealing with this for decades. Have tried umpteen different tactics but as pp in my position have said, when it starts affecting/hurting the next generation there has to be a point where you protect them.

fairydoll.

If you had the option of NC, then you haven't experienced what the MN threads talk about: i.e. being put in a position where contact is no longer a healthy option

I just don't get how telling a person their behaviour is causing a rift is considered more hurtful than simply severing contact

Okay well this isn't going to get either of us anywhere if you're not actually reading my posts.

I brought up prolematic behaviour with her.
I didn't "simply sever contact"

No I don't Garliccake and for that I thank my lucky stars.

I have a normal relationship - whatever that might be- with all my family and extended family .-and I am eternally grateful not to experience these far reaching family rifts.

When I talked of opportunity it was to correct behaviours or attitudes AFTER you have been frank and forthright about what you see as a problem. I just don't get how telling a person their behaviour is causing a rift is considered more hurtful than simply severing contact.

But as I say - this is not my experience so perhaps I will never understand , and I'm fine with that !

GarlicCake

'Dont you know at least one person....'

Yes, I do! My son's partner. If he can't fathom her out despite numerous attempts to discover why she has a problem with us and ceased contact, there's not a snowflake in hell's chance we will ever 'get it'.

Apart from my mum and stepdad, referred to in a previous post, I could have gone NC with my MIL! In retrospect many of her contentious remarks during the early days of my marriage to her son were quite amusing, and I have since joked with her about them. Her view, based on her own life growing up in the 1920/30's was that the menfolk (as she referred to my FIL and her son ) had to be 'obeyed'
and always put first. She was very, very old fashioned and opinionated, but I was, and always have been , quite self-assured so her remarks didn't bother me too much but I imagine someone with a fragile self esteem could have been very upset.

We've now been Mil /DIL for 45 years and I know she won't be around much longer. Thank goodness I managed to form a lasting relationship with her despite her very different outlook on life. I think we've both benefited from our relationship. I will miss her when she's gone - more than I can say

Someone said "I wanted normality". I think it was Yogagirl.
But what is normality? Families and relationships are constantly changing, all families are different, so there's no "normal".
Relationships need to be constantly worked on.