MIL - how do I tackle this?

Ooops, x-post with barbs - I think you are right, and I need to work on techniques for not letting it get to me.

BIL has a brilliant, comic turn of singing 'Let it go' from Frozen, when out of earshot!! It has become our act of quiet defiance! I am lucky that he and his partner are lovely and understanding.

wendy - you are right, if I said I wasn't seeing them, DH probably wouldn't either. However, That's why I feel it's such a responsibility not to do that, in a way. I want him to have a relationship with his parents, I think all of them would be really sad if it didn't happen. I accept that it will never be the best, most brilliant of relationships and that I can't change them - they are in their 70s! I do, however, need to do something to protect myself from the devastating and constant unsolicited advice, criticism and orders, so minor modifications are what I'm shooting for I guess!

farnorth DH is aware of how difficult I find them - it is something we discuss quite openly, and with BIL and his partner too, who find them equally challenging. I think he finds even the act of discussing them difficult, however. He feels guilty both ways. He is quite self-sacrificing (a result of their upbringing) and gets upset when he thinks there is a conflict between his duty to them and to me, even though I am careful never, ever to frame it as a choice.

emily - that link is really helpful, thank you! I shall gird my loins and give some of the techniques a go, I think. Your conversation tips are also really helpful - I will try to develop more involved lines of discussion on subjects where they are more comfortable.

I like the idea of creative deviance, and it's something I've tried in the past, but the trouble is MIL sees it as a way to offer more advice. So the way I crochet will be wrong, or the tapestry will be wrong. Often, the 'wrongness' is just that I don't do it her way. My own grandmother was a seamstress and I was brought up with very tidy habits of needlework: on a tapestry, it drives me crazy if all the stitches don't lie the same way. MIL gets cross about this and tells me not to bother because she doesn't. She makes such a big deal of it that it puts me in a position where I either have to defy her quite obviously or I have to do it in a way that I find messy just to keep her happy. It is the same in the kitchen, so I always try to do most of the cooking before she arrives to avoid being stressed - it's a bit of a shame, because it's one area where I could really learn from her. She is a better cook than me, but she is just as domineering with BIL's partner, who is the best cook I know.

Even when I try to escape to my garden (which is my pride and joy) to 'do the watering', but she follows me out there when I'm just trying to get away for 2 minutes, and marches around giving me yet more advice. I grow all of my own veg as well as having a pretty flower garden - she never grows veg, yet she assumes this position of the knowledgeable critic on the basis of talks she has attended. So we will be in the greenhouse, and she will be bossing me around, even though she's never had a greenhouse herself and doesn't really grow from seed! I realise it sounds minor, but I feel like even the things I'm demonstrably good at are areas where she is constantly critiquing.

It really gets to me, to the point that I will be angry and threatened and very close to tears after a few hours. I realise that I am too insecure and thin-skinned about this, so if anyone can think of ways of being thicker-skinned, I would appreciate it.

You appear to be asking how you can change other adults. The answer is that, not only would this be extremely difficult, but it isn't your responsibility. The only person you can change is yourself, your own reaction and whether you want to continually put yourself in an unhealthy situation over and over again.

If you choose to continue contact (and I quite understand why you would feel this way), then I would suggest you look at how you can change your own reaction. Personally, if someone criticised how I was doing something, I would simply say "I like to do it this way" and, if the criticism continued, I would smile and say "Well, I'm going to do it this way". If you have some coping tools up your sleeve then you may not feel as distressed.

Saying all that though, sometimes we have to remove people from our lives if they are causing so much unhappiness. Ideally, saying what you have to say to your MIL would be the most giving thing to do as you are giving her the chance to reflect on her behaviour, but from what you have said, it seems she is not the type of person who would be capable of self analysis. So your only option is to remove yourself from the situation (which you have said you do not wish to do) or change your reaction to her bullying behaviour.

Dear Walterbenjamin You are doing such a good job. Your DH's parents clearly had their own difficulties as children and young adults that they never resolved so these unresolved personal issues have resulted in a very difficult childhood for your DH. You are his rock. What hard work. Family is family and very valued so if you can still manage to visit etc. I think making things a bit shorter and perhaps learning a few suitable assertiveness techniques might help.

This pdf gives a brief introduction to assertiveness. You notice is says self care kit. You need one.
socialwork.buffalo.edu/content/dam/socialwork/home/self-care-kit/exercises/assertiveness-and-nonassertiveness.pdf

You might try broken record record - look for a fuller explanation. When you are refusing something ie a visit, you say. I appreciate that you would like us to do this... However we don't want to make that visit today. As they argue you repeat their main sentiment whilst finishing with your line: However we don't want to make that visit today

Also study what it is that goes so well in the first part of the visit. They seem to be a couple that must be engaged in activity as they can't cope with any personal chat yet if you didn't call they would feel they had lost their son.

Praise the stuff you like i.e. if you are served from a nice tea set that was a marriage gift say how lovely it is, how nice to see it again, lovely bone china so unusual these days etc.

If they discuss the weather you give them some further news on the weather i.e. a cooler/hotter spell is coming. If you want you could lead into what is the hottest spell they remember Was it the summer of? etc.

You might also try tactics such as having some knitting, sewing or tapestry to finish so that in their 'enforced' company you are always doing something. When they are being rude and controlling you would start to count your stitches, or thread your needle etc.

You could call these coping skills 'creative deviance'. Hopefully you will think of some more that will work for you. Good Luck!

I do feel for you walterbenjamin .. family problems are so very difficult to deal with. Why don't you reduce contact a bit - maybe two night stays rather than three and have you thought about having a short holiday with them at a hotel. This would ensure that you can get some time away from them. DH has had counselling but cannot seem to break the ties and you have to come to terms with your own issues. It sounds as though in laws also find the relationship hard to manage and seem to keep offering "advice" rather than being able to talk to you. Don't give up but take the lead sometimes - it sounds as that in laws need advice too. Good luck

Could you put your original post into a letter to them? They have to realise that their communication and interaction has repercussions. I agree that some contact is preferential as its a shame when families lose contact.

Does your DH understand how upsetting the whole situation is, for you?
Of course you don't want to pressure him but maybe letting him know how it affects you could give him a new viewpoint and a new reason to take control, for your good.

If not, then, yes, shorter visits, less often. And leave if they become insufferable. Protect yourselves.

"I can't understand how you can say your PiL love your DH. For them to induce such anxiety in him that he vomits or can't get out
of bed, the relationship must have been emotionally abusive in the past. That is not love."

This

I agree with Tresco. And I bet if you pull out (tell DH you're not going anymore, but he's free to do so), he'll CO them, himself, very quickly. Try it.

Thank you all so much for your advice. Much to ponder here!

I genuinely don't think NC is an option. DH would find that more difficult, I think, than the limited contact that we have. He has been better since the counselling, but he is very far from being calm and relaxed around them. I think he manages by having this rhythm of weekly phonecalls (where nothing is really discussed) and three or four yearly visits. Because he is the primary person to suffer here, I have to take my cues from what he feels most comfortable with, right? I think his sense of guilt would be overwhelming if he did cut off contact. I agree that this is a legacy of the emotional control he suffered for many years at their hands, but I can't just magic that away. I have encouraged him to seek more help, but he is now very happy and functional in every aspect of life apart from this one.

I do agree, though, that shorter visits are key. It's actually nice when we see them for the first half day - after that, the bossing and control kick in more and more. Keeping it to a two day/one night stay might work better. When we see them, it is very, very full on. They don't really relate to anyone (including us) as people - instead, what they want to do is to race around an area visiting all of the stately homes and being cooked for! If you try to talk to them at any personal level, they instantly clam up and don't know what to do. I think there is an empathy deficit behind this - they lack some kind of ability to put themselves in other peoples' shoes, or to react to an appeal for personal interaction. DH recently got a major promotion that he's been working towards for years, and their response was 'Oh, I suppose we'll see you even less now'.

I'm making them sound really bad but they are not vile or monsters. They aren't even confrontational (it would be much, much easier if they were). They are just two people who have lived in their own bubble for a very, very long time (they retired young). FIL has depression, for which he's never really had proper treatment, and is highly negative as a person - he makes Eeyore look a cheery soul. MIL's way of coping has been to ignore him and breeze through. After 50 years, the result is that they both ignore each other and everyone else! They don't mean to be nasty, but they are a bit selfish and will tend to ignore anything that doesn't play into the situation they want to exist. There is no ability there to pick up the subtle social cues that other people react to. So you know when you suggest doing something, and you're looking for a reaction and if someone seems less than enthused, you let it go and move on? Well, there's none of that! To be heard, you literally have to bellow the message at them in a way that feels so unambiguous that it is rude. Part of this is a lack of communication skills, but part of it is, I think, a bit deliberate, a way of getting their own way.

The best way I can describe it is that being with them is like being smothered. Care and solicitude are only shown in ways that feel bossy and controlling. There is no emotional space for other people!

Yes, different points of view here of course but we all agree you can't carry on like this. So hope you find some way through this. Look after yourselves?

grannyben's is a good suggestion, but I think people who are so confrontational, as the PiLs in this story clearly are, would find a shortening of visits confrontational in itself. I think I simply wouldn't visit for a while (say, a year), and I'd stop answering the phone when they rang. This isn't confrontational, it's backing away from their behaviour: simply not allowing them to 'poke' me with their verbal weapons.

When it seemed clear they'd got the message that I wasn't to be pushed so much as in the oast, I'd tentatively restart visits, but only half day visits to begin with, so that my escape route was always clear.

Agree with grannyben . I hate confrontation so her suggestion of cutting it short, Saturday to Sunday is a good compromise . You will never change these people no matter how much discussion there is , it would be a matter of damage limitation by seeing them less .
Sorry to hear of your health problems xx

Op life is too short for all this hassle.
I too had to deal with this not from pil but my own family.
The issue of infertility is a hot topic.
We made up our mind we were now a family unit us against the world
It gave us great confidence in each other
We did adopt 2 boys and now have a precious grandaughter..
My pil were great as we did not succumb to any pressure.....
We learned to show we were a family even if it only had us
2 in it
My husband was an only son and mil adored gs

I can't understand how you can say your PiL love your DH. For them to induce such anxiety in him that he vomits or can't get out
of bed, the relationship must have been emotionally abusive in the past. That is not love.

Who is going to benefit from this horrible contact ? Not your OH , not you , and the PIL are so oblivious I don't think they would miss you ! Please look after you OH and yourself xxxxxxxxx

And/or could you stay somewhere else nearby, rather than in their home.

I can see the merit of speaking clearly to them about the problem but if neither of you can cope with that, at present, then distancing yourselves or cutting off contact may be the way to go.

Don't keep flogging a dead horse.

I know that the other gransnetters are so right but I am such a coward when dealing with problems like this, I just can't cope with confrontation and I always end up feeling like the guilty one. Is it possible to cut the long weekend's a bit shorter. For example, if you as always go Friday to Monday could you just do Saturday morning to Sunday tea time. Then, once you had that established, you could make it every 4 months instead of 3. I know it's not a solution but if it cuts the time you're in their company by half it might feel a bit more manageable.

I agree with Newquay. However difficult it may be, you have to get this out into the open. If nothing changes, then avoid them as much as you can. It sounds as though both you and DH will be a lot happier! I hope you soon feel better - this is something you could certainly do without!

I would recommend facing up to them and giving them the choice but I doubt your DH is up to it.
I would go for minimum contact and then let it wash over you. Smile, nod, totally ignore . If you need to to say something stick with 'really'.

A sister in law came home on a visit from Oz. Will never know what she said (permanent troublemaker sadly) but MIL was then obviously miffed with DH and I. Stuck it out for a few weeks then DH (normally so mild and loved his Mum) told her in no uncertain terms that this behaviour had to stop. If it didn't he would vote with his feet and stay away with me and DGC.
Next afternoon, while he was at work, I went to see her. We had a frank (but not unkind) exchange of views. I told her straight I had never seen DH so angry and, unless she sorted things out she would not see him again.
I told DH of my visit when he got in from work; she rang later and apologised but wouldn't say what had happened.
Normal visits were resumed. Never brilliant but not as before.
I recommend facing up to them and give them the choice.

Just to add - people often tell me they want a particular relationship to work or at least be maintained for so many different reasons (e.g.it just should be/would be so sad if it wasn't/they'd feel guilty if it wasn't/the other people involved will hate them if they stop the relationship). None of these are valid reasons - relationships can only really be maintained if both sides are prepared to be kind to each other, and it sounds like your PILS are not. They do not deserve your husband's unconditional love, or yours. It sounds very harsh, but life really is too short for all this misery, especially when it is making your husband ill.

I am so sorry to hear about your own health problems.

As for the PIL's I'm with dramatictessa, don't visit or keep visits down to once a year. Are they unaware of their behaviour/attitude or is it a deliberate ploy with them? It sounds excruciating!

It certainly doesn't sound like a healthy relationship between them and any of their family and if they (your husband and his brother) aren't able to confront their parents, or if they've tried in the past to no avail then the only way is to distance yourselves from them. Yes, it's sad for everyone concerned but they have brought it on themselves by being so unbearable.

If your husband is so affected by the thought of seeing them it's really not worth it! Life is too short.

We have talked and talked about mothers in laws. If she is vile, give her a miss and spare yourself years of heartache. You will never be good enough for her until she sees you as an equal who loves her son as much as you do. (differently of course. )

Thank goodness they live no closer! Do they initiate the contacts that you do have?

I am sorry to hear about your surgery and resulting infertility. I do hope this couple do not keep dropping hints about babies - that would be a nightmare.

I think that you are very good to see as much of them as you do. I guess they do not deserve to be visited if FIL is so unpleasant.

I would keep it to a minimum if I were you - life is too short for this misery.