Support for those estranged from family members. Moving on together,

eddiecat is spot on Jammytoast. Our GC are being used as weapons by our son and his wife there's no justification for us being denied those little boys. The only explanation, if you can call it that, that we've ever had is he has 'issues'.

If a grandparent really is a danger to grandchildren of course they don`t have a right to see them. The thing that causes many of us distress is that we are prevented from seeing our grandchildren purely because their mother has decided she wants no contact with us. In this case I truly believe that the child is being deprived just as much as the grandparent

Thinking about my own estranged relationship with my mother (who has been trying to contact my children directly recently) May I ask, do those of you who are estranged believe you have a 'right' to have contact with your gc regardless of what's happened between you & your children? I ask because I ponder what is going on in my mothers head? In my case I cut my mother off specifically to protect my kids.

"my grief was for the loss of my boy, not the man he became"; exactly Stella, mine too. I once heard someone say that grief isn't just about the person whose lost through death or estrangement, it's also about the loss of what could have been, of what we thought we were going to have. A lifetime planned that will never be.

At such a young age, allowing your mother to raise your DD was the selfless act of a mother wanting her best for her child. Your lovely daughter knows this, even though her childhood wasn't all it appeared to be and what you hoped it would be. Not only does your post in such an understated yet very moving way exemplify the love you and your daughter have for another, it also exemplifies the monstrous behaviour of our AC who have abandoned us, stolen our GC and in using them as weapons, deprived them of loving grand parents and an extended family.

Sparklygranma, I completely agree about not looking. I can't guarantee that I never will, but I have got much better at it. I am sorry for your pain about discovering your new GC. I found out about my last two GC when my other (lovely) daughter, who has also been cut off by my estanged son, discovered it on Facebook.

Smileless, thank you for your response. It was truly a joy to read. I don't think I have ever articulated what you put here,
"I cannot think of any other relationship apart from that between an AC and parent, where the sense of entitlement supersedes everything; love, compassion and understanding."
but it is definitely where I am coming from and your words are very reassuring. So much time is spent by parents putting up with being treated with no consideration, respect, thoughtlessly and sometimes even with deliberate cruelty, only to keep on desperately trying not to upset their AC. I do understand that parents are in a horrible position when they already have an established, loving relationship with grandchildren that they fear losing. Fortunately, for me, I haven't had that dilemma. My ES has 3 children, the first I last saw on his first birthday. I had only seen him for very brief visits twice before then, so I had not really built a relationship with him. The other two, I only learned of through the grapevine. I don't have any sense of pining for these children that I don't know.

I grieved dreadfully for my son for years, but after 8-1/2-years, I have largely worked through that. I also realised along the way that my grief was for the loss of my boy, not the man he became, so even if I saw him regularly, it would be the self obsessed, self entitled adult who threw me crumbs. My youngest daughter does not have any children, although she is planning to have one. I think we may yet get our relationship back on track, I do hope so. She once told me that her new husband, who she has lived with for a few years, is good for her partly because "he won't stand for my shit". I didn't need to ask what she meant and she knew that she didn't need to explain! Well, it's like something changed in me recently and I've reached the point where I won't put up with her shit either! I am lucky in having another daughter who is lovely. We have a loving, straightforward relationship. Her husband is a great guy and I have 3 fab grandchildren there. Interestingly, I had her at 16 and she was raised by my mother who was by no means an easy woman, but who appeared to dote on my daughter and spoil her. It was only years later that I learned from my daughter that behind the scenes that was not the case and she had not had a good childhood. Therefore, if any of my children had cause to be angry with me and resent me, it is her, but this is not the case. Rather, it's the ones who were the centre of the bloody universe growing-up that have the issues! More evidence for the theory that attending to our children's every want and need, always putting them first as children, turns them into self entitled adults ?

Sounds like everybody here got through Christmas ok, whether happily or not. So sorry about all the continued estrangements.

Mumsy, I'm another one who thinks that maybe the "cold" email was better than no response at all. Possibly, they were just being cautious and didn't realize how cold it sounded.

Stella, I agree with your decision about Boxing Day. I understand your fears, but it's not as if you told your D that you don't love her or want to be around her or anything like that. You just suggested you could both use some space. I think that's true and (sigh), I bet she was even somewhat relieved. Welcome!

About gifts - I've heard about some EGPs putting aside the money they would spend on a gift for their GC at Christmas and birthdays, each year, and giving it to them when they turn 18 (perhaps for college) or if they reach out to their EGPs at any point in their adulthood. Food for thought.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised to see so many people here saying "Merry Christmas!" I thought it was "Happy Christmas!" in the UK. Shows what I know, LOL!

Hope everyone has the happiest New Year possible and that your estrangements ease, somehow, in the coming year - or, if not, that they get easier to bear. (((Hugs))) to all!

Welcome Stella. IMO you did the right thing regarding Boxing day. I understand not wanting to 'make waves' already being estranged from one AC, I felt that way about our DS especially when lies were being told that could have damaged our relationship with him too.

I've never been any good at walking on eggshells, DS always says of me that I don't have to say what I'm thinking as it's written all over my face.

Not once in over 4 years of our estrangement have I just taken on the chin the cruelty of our ES. In a measured, controlled and forceful manner on the few occasions I've been able too, I've always 'put him right' and have consistently refused to apologise for, and/or take any responsibility for things I haven't done or said.

Has this approach resolved our estrangement? No. Has it perhaps made reconciliation less likely? Possibly. Do I regret the stance I've taken? No. I cannot think of any other relationship apart from that between an AC and parent, where the sense of entitlement supersedes everything; love, compassion and understanding. Your level of anxiety at the thought of spending the day with her shows in your post; you did the right thing.

SparklyGrandma"don't make yourself unhappy by looking for misery" I think has been my silent mantra and is why I've taken the approach to our estrangement that I have. It's why we moved; a dear friend said he wouldn't have allowed his ES to force him out of his home, neither did we. We took back control; we couldn't make them allow us contact with our GC but we could remove ourselves from the spectacle of seeing them in the village where we lived.

Luckylegsmoving away without the love and support of Mr. S. would have been so much harder but yes, I honestly think I'd have done the same thing. There's a line in Harry Potter that goes something like this 'don't spend your life wishing for things that can never be, and forget to live'.

We had a lovely Christmas (never thought I'd say that again). Just us 2 and my brother on Christmas day and a big family dinner with Mr. S.'s family on Boxing day. As we all sat there together, laughing and reminiscing I couldn't help but think of all that our ES was and would always be missing out on, and those dear little boys too.

BIG (((hugs))) for you all.

Thankyou Yogagirl and yes he did the decent thing, the exDH. I am estranged from DS and DiL plus DGC so unlikely in the foreseeable.

Sparklygran Congratulations on the birth of your new grandchild I hope you get to see her/him some day soon, it was good of your ex to let you know, he did the decent thing.

Hope you had a good Xmas Smileless
and Celebgran,did you see your twin brothers grandchildren that you love so much and your Son & family?

Stella14 sorry to hear of your situation and if one adult child has rejected us it is hard sometimes to see ordinary adult behaviour of other busy adult children as sort of normal, maybe.

I had mentioned on here that I have started a presents box for my DGC. I feel a bit better doing it this way rather than posting things off to them, never hearing if they have arrived and suspecting the presents might be just thrown out.

I had Christmas lunch with 2 friends and have more lunch to come today with another lovely friend, to celebrate Christmas. My DB and SiL visit next weekend too.

But a challenging note was a phone call yesterday from exDH and he mentioned I have another DGC born in November. He had been sworn to secrecy but couldn't stick to it for a moment more.

About photos of estranged family on FB - I kept being upset by either photos posted which appeared on my FB page of my DS DiL and DGC - OR I looked at FB pages of linked family members to see photos of them.

This wasn't doing me any good so I decided a year ago, no looking for photos and anyone who has them actively appearing often, I have blocked, for my own well being and peace of mind.

Dear ladies, please dont make yourself unhappy by looking for misery. Protect yourselves

Thank you Luckylegs. I'm just sick of tip toeing around to try to keep the peace. I have become very used to no contact for months at a time and have come to realise that I am happier getting on with life with my husband (we have lived together for several years and married last October) and my eldest daughter and her family, who are a joy. It's just been announced that Carrie Fisher has died at 60, George Michael at 53. I'm 57 and hubby is 63. None of us know how long we have, but it will never be long enough to accept all of the stress. I hope to be able to have a better relationship with my daughter, but I'm emotionally exhausted by it as it is now. So if contact is minimal or none, then so be it.

I read back through the thread to find something of your situation. I am sorry to read that you are alone. No wonder you find the festive season tough, it used to be hard enough for me even with the support if hubby and my other daughter. I have virtually got past that for me though (although, I don't like it and am always glad when it's over). I hope it wasn't too awful for you this year. All the fuss will be over soon.

Stella, you had just reached the end of the line. In retrospect, perhaps the Boxing Day visit should have happened. However, only you know how her visits make you feel, that pit in your stomach that whatever you say or do will be wrong, the walking on eggshells, the constant worry of something erupting, eventually it had to stop before you become a nervous wreck and a doormat.i would not discussus your money with her, if she gets something one day then good, but it's not for her to expect it, you or your husband might need it for care. You are lucky to have a husband at your side so you are not alone. I think of the saying, you don't remember what people say, but you do remember how they make you feel. Perhaps standing your ground will make her appreciate you. For me I can never come to terms with my daughters cruelty, it is something I couldn't do to anyone, it's there in their nature just as a good heart is or compassion, they would need apersonality transplant.

The thing is Yogagirl, I'd reached the point of not wanting to see her on Boxing day. I guess I had reached my limit. She was clearly still in a strop and I didn't want the 'pretending to be friendly in front of the new husband' type of visit. It is less common I suppose for parents to not want to see their adult children, but if she can't talk to me and have a normal relationship, I don't want to meet-up for a duty visit at Christmas.

Oh dear Stella what a web we weave Very insensitive of your daughter to ask about house value, savings etc. I can understand why you would be upset, you would think someone at the table would have pulled her up on it, someone should now. It would have been better not to have txted her on Xmas evening, I think, but enjoyed Boxing day with your D & her nice sounding boyfriend, he may make her a better person & more considerate to her mum. Now when will you see her, have you spoken since? Sorry about your Son

Mumsy Bad idea looking on FB and the like, don't do it, I never do. As I've said above my ND's friend sent pics of my estD&GC, really upset me just before Xmas! But if you get sent them on 'whatsapp' you can't not look but I never go looking!

Mumsy, I know just what you mean. I used to torture myself doing that. I'm better these days and only do so rarely. I find it difficult to write about my own situation. My son has been estranged for 8 years, since I divorced his father. That broke my heart and I was inconsolable for years at Christmas, Mother's day etc. It's been maybe the last two years that I moved-on in respect of it. Ratger than feeling desperate and distraught, I felt angry when I thought if him. Most recently, although there is still a sting when I think of him, his wife and children, I'm pretty okay with it and I wouldn't welcome the idea if having him back in my life.

My youngest daughter (34) has been hard work since entering adolescence (13), very prickly, flew off the handle if anything didn't go her way. Her father and I assumed she would grow out of it. The drama of her meltdowns was very stressful and effected the whole family, so we tended to tip toe around her to keep the peace (not the best idea in retrospect, but it was such hard work). Unfortunately, she didn't grow out of it. She remained a very 'highly strung' person. She became a very self entitled adult (as is my ES). She is able to select who she expresses that too though (never to friends or friends parents for instance), so she can obviously control it. She is a hard worker and has worked abroad for the past 9 years. She has never been good at keeping in touch, but I have always been there for her. I had to come to accept no contact, often for 5 or 6 months at a time, certainly for 3 months at least. I learned not to worry too much about her, but concern was always there. It's always been me she called for advice for problems and if she wanted anything doing in the UK (admin type stuff). At those times she has always said how wonderful I was, she loved me etc. When she was at home she had the use of my car. If ever (rarely) I declined that, like when she went through a phase of believing that there was nothing wrong with having 'a couple of drinks' and driving home, there were ructions! When she was at home, she pretty much used our house as a base from which to visit other family members and friends. She spent no real time with us (she likes my new husband). She got married herself (quietly abroad) in March and brought her new husband home to meet everyone, staying with us. He is a lovely, intelligent and funny guy and clearly very good for her. She is a much easier person with him, clearly much more relaxed. It was a really great visit. All 4 of us spent time together, a couple of meals, and evenings setting the world to rights.

Over recent years, aside from the tantrums and the lack of contact unless she wanted something from me (my husband mentioned this, when I was wondering if the tension between us was my fault), I have not been permitted to post on her Facebook page, despite all and sundry (including her father's girlfriend being permitted to do so). I have never been able to ascertain why this is. I have asked a couple of times (quite tentatively), but that just resulted in me being shouted out and no reason given (posting meaning e.g. a 'happy birthday' post, nothing major or odd). In addition, she has said some very hurtful things over recent years. I haven't been able to discuss them, or my feelings with her, as any attempt to do so results in her getting angry. I don't pursue it then, as I don't want to argue. About 6 or 7 weeks ago though, we had a disagreement. It felt different for me this time. I'm aware that I have avoided standing-up for myself because if she flounced-off in a huff, I could have two estanged children and that would be very tough indeed. It must be easier for a second adult child to justify that to themselves because the parent already has the label of unreasonable from their sibling. A second estangement would also be reassuring for my ES (they must be in the right because they can't both be wrong). I know I was a good and loving mother to my children (although I reproached myself for a long and painful time after my son cut me off). Certainly, there are some minor things that I would do differently looking back, but none of us are perfect and there is no perfect mother, just 'good enough' as the research shows us. I do doubt myself still though sometimes. From what I have read about parents in our position, we all do. Anyway, in the past I have smoothed things over (by text or whatsapp message as that is all she uses to contact me), but this time, I felt different. I'd had enough of being treated with no consideration and couldn't bring myself to 'make nice'. Needless to say, neither did she. She had suggested weeks ago that she and new husband came to visit us on boxing day (she has very recently returned to settle in the UK), but we never heard from her over Christmas (admittedly, I didn't message her either. She was with the mother hating end of the family though, so I felt reticent to do so). On Christmas night, I messaged her to say that I was surprised not to have heard from her and was the apparently planned visit the following day a duty visit because if so, it wouldn't be good for either of us. I added that if I had the wrong end of the stick, I was sorry and to let me know what her plans were. She messaged me back 'If you wanted a Christmas message you should have said, we had been planning to come tomorrow. Let me know if it's still on'. I should have said that I had been stressing about this visit for days, couldn't sleep for feeling anxious on Christmas Eve and by Christmas evening was actually considering taking Diazapam. Not something I usually do, but there are some in the house prescribed for when I was a passenger being driven on narrow mountain roads. I faced the fact that I was by then dreading the visit, so I said 'no, lets just pass on visits until/unless we can get our relationship back on better terms'. The reason I was thinking duty visit is because, over the past couple of years, she has been stressing over not having a pension and has been repeatedly asking me what my house is worth, if I have any mortgage on it (I do), if I have savings and more. She even asked all this again at the dinner table on her last visit, in the presence of her new husband and mine! When she was talking about the lack of a pension and worries for the future a couple of years ago, I told her that I had cut her brother out of my Will, so that she should be okay financially as the estate would be split equally between her and her sister. She was obviously quite shocked by that.

There is so much detail I could go into, but it would only upset me and I have rambled on long enough. If you have got this far, thanks for reading.

hope youve all survived xmas and the heartache it brought us all, (((hugs))) I did the most stupid thing yesterday and so regret it, I looked at my older grandaughters facebook page and there they all were my estranged family happily celebrating xmas with a family selfie!! I must stop torturing myself like this, they dont give a toss about me so why am I bothering about them!!

still ill from this awful virus its now day 12!! so Im really feeling sorry for myself.

Morning Luckylegs sorry you didn't enjoy Xmas }}}Hugs{{{
Fifth Xmas without my beloved D&GC, I have to concede they are strangers now and like you L I have got to forget them in my life I said and did not one bad word or deed and was very good to them as a whole family, generous too. It's a horrible feeling to realize that after brining them up with love & kindness, always putting them first, thinking they love you back, that once they have their own family unit, husband,children,home, you their mum, are not required in their lives anymore and can be happily thrown in the bin!

Having said that, I had a lovely Xmas day with my ND, her husband and baby GD, they are coming to me today for dinner, so more amusement watching little C, she loved the dolls house I bought her, as big as her Even so, I still have the horrible knowledge of what I said above in, my head. Before all this estrangement I thought that Grandma/pa was a treasured member of the family [as was my mum&dad, and theirs beforehand] but I've had a very rude awakening that this is not so in all families, I never thought that would include mine

Omg, what a near escape you and your son had. I am sorry about your d, you are such a kind and warm person, she must miss you, hopefully she will be in touch before it's too late, but the pictures upset you and this life she has without you in it..
Yesterday was the 2ne worse Christmas Day ever, the first was my husband dying in a hospice. No need to explain, but it involved my daughter. I have decided not to mention her again or my darling gd, the pains too much.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

My Son opened the e-card I sent him! so that made me happy. I sent him an email this morning too. A friend of my Son's came to visit me on Thursday, stayed all day till evening, proclaiming her love for my Son, but they had only been together 2 weeks before she returned to her home country of Canada, they stayed in-touch, but after 5yrs my son moved on, but it would seem she didn't. She had lunch with my daughter & I, then afternoon tea, my ND left, still she didn't make a move, I resisted offering dinner, as I thought she may then say she's too tired to travel back to London! At 7.15 I took her back to the station, and as I drove back home, as nice as she was, with lots of chat & news of my estS, I thought Whew! But that was not the end, as next day she phoned me at 8am in the morning, I thought she may have spoken or seen my S, but in-fact she asked if she could move in with me, saying how nice, friendly and kind she thought I was

When I got home from dropping her at the station, my ND had sent me some pics her friend had got of my estD&GC, they upset me sooo much, as they were so grown, some pics I could see my D & GD as they had been,the same almost, but others I couldn't even recognize my D, my GC looked so different their faces had changed My ND tracked down the school uniforms and they have moved to my most favourite place Thorpe Bay, but on the other side, further away, If the fab house I saw there about 6mnths ago hadn't gone [it was so nice, I was going to 'go for it'], I would be living 5mins away from them again, but on the other side Thorpe Bay is very expensive, so if you live on the boarders it's a bit cheaper.

Well enough waffle, need to go and help my D peel the spuds for our Xmas dinner take Lilly for a little walk in the park first.

I wish you all a very Merry Christmas Day

Celebregran, your granddaughters might not even know you sent them. I have always been over the top with food and presents, one year I know for sure that the present I sent to granddaughter did not not get to her. I still do it though. This will be for me the last of the big presents, I am going to start treating myself instead, send cash for £50 each child, am going to change my will, so that they don't get anything, they might take notice then. Will leave everything to those that do care, but I know I must specify this at the time of redoing my will and the reasons why. I was never given anything, my parents couldn't afford it, but I had love and respect for them. I went wrong in putting them first, they thought it their right. I bought my daughter up to have good manners, she had close relationships with hands on grandparents, maternal and paternal, so it's not that she is like it because I was. I do identify with Mumsy, been there done that. I am just weary of the whole thing, I feel as if I don't want to see her anymore. Let's face it there could be no relationship anymore.Know just how you feel Smileless, that just about sums me up, sorry state of affairs, but no going back, so getting on with it. Me I am still procrastinating, you have done the dreaded move and it was all for the best. Could you have done it if had been just you, think I just make excuses for not doing things because I haven't a partner, enjoy the Christmas all of you.x.

I'm sorry the email you received from your daughter and eldest grand daughter was cold Mumsy but at least there was an acknowledgement; better than nothing perhaps.

The gammon joint is in the oven and despite a not too brilliant start to the day I'm back on track. We were both a little tearful last night; not specifically because we miss our ES but we just both felt rather. It's such a sad state of affairs isn't it.

Well we've done it again ladies, almost made it to the end of another year without the children who've abandoned us and for many, have taken away our GC.

I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Thank you for being here for me and for allowing me to be here for youBIG (((hugs))).

Mummy so sorry u not got card back.

We sent beautiful cards and next vouchers to each Gra daughter no thank you, it saddens me that my daughter is. Not teaching the girls any manners,

In a way it is better to return voucher gifts than keep them without thanks or acknowledgment it is just how I was brought up I expect, but I did try bring my estranged daughter up to be polite and caring, it seems family she married into have influenced her.

hi everyone, not posted for a while but have been popping in now and again to read your posts. As we all know this is a very difficult time of year for us, two weeks ago I took the plunge and sent my daughter and her husband, and both grandaughters and partners a xmas card each, I received a cold email from daughter and older grandaughter just saying 'thankyou for the xmas card' no ive not recieved a card from any of them. I find it so sad that like your kids they are so busy living in the past and missing out on the present, the past can not be changed but can be moved on from to rebuild relationships but they dont want to know.

You are all in my thoughts and I wish you a Merry Christmas and a year full of hope of a reconciliation with your loved ones. xx

Ooooh enjoy those Roses Luckylegs. Well I've given up worrying about what I'm eating and how much until the New Year.
Mr. S. and I have been eating out quite a lot since our move, discovering some lovely very local places.

Ankersand thanks for your lovely post.

That's great news Celeb at last a diagnosis, you must be so relieved. Hopefully you'll receive the treatment you've been waiting for and at last the pain will be a distant if not very happy memory. I'm sorry that you felt it necessary to cancel your cruise but it's perhaps better left until you're feeling better and can really enjoy the holiday.

I had a great day on Tuesday, made mince pies and marzipanned and iced a Christmas cake which a dear old lady whose been a customer for years kindly made for us.

It took me back to when I used to make my own Christmas puddings and cake. I thought I should start doing it again next year but the cake is really too big for our needs and the ones you can buy and the puddings are so lovely, is it really worth the effort??

With just 2 days to go I hope you're all finding a way of coping. I have to say that so far this has been the easiest run up to Christmas for us for 4 years. We did decide not to go to our new church on Sunday as there was a children's nativity as part of the service and well. we're doing well but not that well.

I'm sad that we wont be with our DS and lovely d.i.l. in Aus. but have no regrets about cancelling our trip. We really needed this, to take time out for one another and our new home, to begin settling into our new lives. I know he was disappointed but he understood and hopefully we'll be skyping them on Christmas day.

Stay strong ladies, do what makes you happy for Christmas because you deserve to be happy, each and everyone of you.

I have two trees up and they look lovely, baked mince pies and sausage rolls, but friend popped in and the numbers reduced. I'm out today for a Christmas meal with a group of friends and I like coming back in to the decorations. Diet gone to pot as I have ready consumed so much foodin the lead up to the big day, cannot sit there whist everyone else eats. I have big jumpers ready. Hopefully get back on site before Christmas Eve, but I have invited people over the next few days. You sound so much better Celebregran, we have all got to enjoy the now. So Happy Christmas everyone.special wish to those on their own, know it's hard but hope you enjoy it, even if it's having special foods that you enjoy, going a walk or to Church or just watching television or reading. There are a few films on t v I have not seen yet and I have a big bag of Roses at the ready.