Support for those estranged from family members. Moving on together,

Thanks sparkly grandma it is no good keep on about pain of losing my daughter who wants to hear it? And it drags you down,

Chuffed today did ladies pedicure an elderly one who is. So nice could t let her down
Then made lunch out with my goodness friends do club,

Met up with friends tonight so busy day,

Rhinestone ?????so sorry your husband feels like that, yogagirl is right it brightens you up, mynsons partner posted me so baubles for tree to cheer me up that was kind, it brighte s our Holme love lights on dull days not real one would love that yogagirl ??we have little one In Hallway a d dining room love it!

Rhinestone am waiting c back specialist now finally had diagnosis of nerves squashed of place right side of back,

celebgran it is good to hear how you deal with casual mentions of DGC and good luck to your lovely hairdresser .

Yogagirl its a minefield but deftly avoided.

Nearly all shopping done. I had a nice day out with friends over the weekend to an English town though I had got the wrong end of the stick when after lunch they said 'right see you at 15.30' - nearly three hours of shopping time I had not planned for. Dear me I can laugh now but everywhere was full.

We have to laugh sometimes don't we ladies?

Rhinestone for you on this difficult day, and for your grieving husband I have my Xmas tree up, lovely twinkling lights and bubbles, the smell of the fresh tree is heart lifting, it would lift your hubby's spirits if you ventured out to an Xmas tree farm, chose a nice tree, and put it up in your home, decorating it with lights and fairy or star on top would definitely lift his spirits. On the first Xmas I was 'cut out' I said the same "no Christmas this year, in this house" but I did in the end and it really did make me feel better and has done the trick every year since, so give it a go

Sparklygran yes we must all have those conversations with different folk. My last one was when I was showing a group of friends my ND's wedding pics on my laptop, one that I've know for a few years, but doesn't know, kept asking where my youngest D was, till I finally just said "she's not there" and no more was said.

Ankers thanks for your concern, yes this time of year is very difficult.
Celebgran I have treasured photos too, but I've put them behind a small palm plant on the sideboard in the dinning room, I can't have them under my nose, too painful to look at. last time my ND was over, we looked at them and she got a little passport size pic of my S that was sitting on the window ledge above, and the likeness between my S&GS was uncanny!

Luckylegs yes I wish I had that 'switch' to not think about my estD&GC and Celebgran you are correct in saying limit thinking of them to once a day for 30mins or so, but I just can't, I really want to give my brain a rest from this sorrow, but it's not happening, this side of the grave. I had a lovely dinner & dance to go to last night and feeling depressed I toyed with the idea of not going, did go in the end and had a really fab evening, with my dancing friends.

Celebgran so sorry to hear you are in so much pain and missing out on your get-togethers, hope the docs get to the bottom of your trouble soon

Celebgran I'm sorry you are still in pain. What can be done about that nerve ? Maybe rehabilitation can work?
SparklyGrandma I was asked the other day how all the grandchildren were doing. I just said fine and then my heart sank a little as that person chattered on about their grandkids.
Had an ultrasound on my kidneys and bladder. They won't call if all is okay so now I wait for my phone not to ring.
Today is my son and ESS birthday and the day my dad passed away. It is a day filled with mixed emotions for me. My son was estranged for almost two years but then came to his senses and took full responsibility for it. But I think because he is not married or with a partner it was easier to reconcile for him. He did not have someone whispering in his ear. My husband is not having a good week about this and wouldn't let me put up the tree again nor does he want a special meal on Xmas eve like I used to do for the family for years. It's depressing to watch him. He saw pictures of his ES little boys on Instagram and that is not easy. When we changed our wills we were told we could leave a letter for the boys with the papers so they will know the truth. That was comforting a little.
The other night we went with some friends to see the musical "Beautiful" and I realized that it made me feel happy and like dancing for the first time in a long time. We all could use that feeling. Hello to Yogagirl "Smileless* Luckylegs Rosy. Sorry if I left anyone out.

Sparklymgrandma mynahirdresser is long term been doing my hair overs 10 years so she is like friend and knows all about my daughter,

She tries to listen and help if I wa t to talk and vice Versa. She is pregnant after losing 2 and praying this time it will be OK for her she is such lovely girl.

I agree now I don't tell any new acquaintances or casual encounters as what's point it is distressing to talk about. And it dampens the conversation!

Well groin scan clear, gp still insisting Is nerve out place in back so bit nervous about. MRI scan results. Meant to hear today?

Had long day yesterday then my twin rang while at gp asking to stay usual upset with his partner what could we say? Was shame as caused upset with me and dh over clearing spare room?

Now have anti siicness meds dissolve in mouth to take before pain relief. Here's hoping.

Yogagirl thank you for nice comments. I find social situations a bit difficult like the hairdressers when they ask 'you seeing family over Christmas?'

Most people are so its not a bad question, but it makes me feel we are surrounded by reminders.

Btw I answered when having hair done this week 'not this year, no'. Whew.

Wishing us all better and closer times [grins]

Angers that's a kind post.

I am sure we will I certainly have enjoyed Xmas for last 7 years the first was definitely the worst i cried for England as I could t comprehend how our daughter could be that cruel.

This Xmas I have health issues that will prevent full enjoyment of anything.

The first Xmas we had our little Gra daughter we had just lost.my beloved f I law but I have treasured photo of me holding xxxxxxx and her trying open presents at just 7 months old. How could i have known last Xmas would see her?

Just wanted to say, as a lurker, that the pain for all of you must be so hard to bear. Perhaps especially at this time of year? I wouldnt know for sure, not being in your boat.
I hope, and I dont really know what to say exactly, that you still manage to have some nice times over the coming couple of weeks or so.

Luckylegs don't mean make it worse but is it your only daughter?

That is so very hard if so.

Thanks i do hope will get diagnosis in end,

My dear husband took me out to lunch and it was lovely despite not feeling great shame my twin didn't make it (his awful partner as usual)?

Happy Sunday all and keep as positive as u can lucky legs we are all important and worthy of love no one deserves the cruelty and lack of compassion we suffer from our estranged kids it says a lot about them.

Celebregran, wish I could go something to help, it is so hard for you. They will get to the root of your pain but doesn't help much now I know. It is a good idea only thinking of your daughter 20 minutes a day, but you can't tell your heart that. I know I will never have a relationship with my girl again, she doesn't love me and you can't alter that, duty doesn't come into it either. Even though I am resigned to that and know I have done everything it still rules my life. Wish it didn't and there was a switch to turn off feelings, so I know just where you are coming from. Christmas makes it harder.?

Lucklegs thanks so much for caring PM. I have had anotherndifficjto week so hence not posting, pain really getting me down,
We mafed couple social visits but had to cancel seeing old friends Thursday and my dear little great niece and nephew,

Sadly medication different gp who was extremely through and kind just wanted get me out pain but diclofennac. Made me so ill had stop it.

Have got scan on groin tomorrow,
Cruise been cancelled and if we can managem book short haul holiday later on as dr given us letter we shouldn't lose too much.

Worried as just keep crying pain getting me down miss my daughter despite all, Gra sent her card when I was in hospital zero response,

Hope I get some answers soon.

Sorry this must sound depressing! Smileless hope your U have wonderful Xmas in. New home, yogagirl enjoy that little one.
My counsellor gave me idea of putting a time and limit on how long we talk about our estranged daughter, it does help. Maybe u could try pushing the upsetting thoughts away acknowledge it's cruel and sad but say will deal with it later?

All best to everybody regular posters and occasional ?????

I should add to the above that all my estD birth family and all but one friend have been 'cut out' of her & the C lives, only my estS left now, why he succumbed to nasty I cannot fathom, apart from I know nasty would call my S his brother.

Hi Sparklygran It's bad that we feel shame at our situation of estrangement, but we do! I had a great night out last night for my 'Yogi dinner & dance', the subject of C&GC came up and I just say I have 3C&3GC and no more, then the pics come out , this was with a few students that don't know my personal life, as some do, being my friends as well as my students. Terrible that your d.i.l dictates that other family members cannot invite you or they wont attend, the other fm should always invite you & them, then if they don't want to be there cos you are, it's them that misses out and not you.
My nasty s.i.l managed to pull a few fm over to his dark side, till they saw the light and now we are all back friendly again, as we had been for near on 40yrs! He had only been in the family 2.5yrs at the time, the destruction he caused affected the whole family and family friends too. Thank God my ND didn't get sucked in, they tried! Pure evil.

Yogagirl that is very interesting and a good description of grandparents unresolved grief.

My estDS and DiL insisted a few years ago that they would only visit other family if I am not invited. This has added to my pain. More sensible family members have tried to challenge this gently but with no result.

I keep away from FB pages that might display photos of these type of family events or photos of the DGs because it upsets me. Its too painful to see images of family get togethers.

However I am going out with friends tomorrow to a Christmas craft market in England and will enjoy it.

I plan to finish putting the DGs presents in the box in January. It means I don't have to shop for them all at this stressful time.

to all of us coping with this at Christmas.

I am so glad I found GN and found this discussion, I dont feel so alone and ashamed about the estrangement now. though still painful.

By Anue Nue:
"Grandparent Estrangement / Alienation is a form of Ambiguous Loss and Disenfranchised Grief. Both of these factors are known to contribute to a more Complicated or Unresolved Grief experience." --Anue Nue
"Ambiguous loss differs from ordinary loss in that there is no verification of death or no certainty that the person will come back or return to the way they used to be. Ambiguous loss freezes the grief process and prevents closure, paralyzing couple and family functioning." Pauline Boss, Ph.D
"Estranged/alienated grandparents grieve the loss of our living children and grandchildren. For many of us there were no goodbyes or even explanations why. Some of us don't even know where they went and if we will ever see them again. We had no bodies to bury. No funerals were held. We had no services to attend. There are no memorials planned or rituals to perform. But they have gone missing from our families. Along with them they may have taken other family members or friends with whom we held attachment bonds as well. Special pets that we bonded with may also have gone missing with them. And because Ostracism is one of the hallmarks of Grandparent Estrangement/Alienation the pain is deep and long lasting, if not forever.
For the most part we have been left to grieve the loss of our loved ones in silence while our grief has mostly gone unacknowledged by society. It has only been fairly recently that grandparents have begun to open up and share their experiences publicly and there is very little scholarly research that describes our grief experience and process.
Yet, hardly anything is ever written that acknowledges or addresses the grief experience of the grandchildren who have been emotionally and physically cut-off from the attachment/bonds we once shared. We grieve over the silence of their grief too.
It is important for us all to remember, especially during the holiday season, that Estranged and Alienated Grandparent are highly susceptible to developing the symptoms of Complicated or Unresolved Grief and to seek support and professional help if our coping mechanisms seem to be failing us."---Anue Nue

Rosy I know we are all in the same boat, but how awful of your d.i.l to stop your son bringing your dgd to see you, you are very patient, I don't know how your son's marriage can last with such a sad situation

Rhinestone you're correct about the expected babysitting. As for mediation, I take it you are asking Celebgran, but when I went,4yrs ago, the mediator was wonderful, I still remember her name; Lynsey, I wish she had told me not to go to court though, big mistake! After my session, my D & her nasty H were invited to attend, which they didn't, after that the papers are forwarded to the courts, to begin the visitation order proceedings, you can pull out of course, but you just get swept along with the process!

So nice to hear how happy you are Smileless in your new home. Yes Xmas is a very hard time of year for us estranged mums , as I've said before, I have to turn the radio off at times & skip the Xmas happy family ads. I know I am very lucky to have my ND & baby GD, she is an absolute delight , I've bought her a big dolls house and all the furniture & people to go with, she is a little young for it, but I think she will love playing with it.

I know you will be thinking that my pain is less, when I am with them, it is, but as soon as they are gone I go to bed thinking of my estD&GC and wake early hours the same, till I get up and make a cup of tea, which makes me feel better. Didn't help when I took another look at those pics my ND forwarded to me, that her friend had got off FB, seeing my darling little L all grown, with short bob hair and my little GS in his judo outfit, when I looked I thought 'that is my grandson' and the pic of my estD on Mothers day, having her head massaged by the C, she looked ill to me or very depressed Such a worry, to wonder how my D & GD are being treated, I know my GS is OK as he is nasty's beloved Son.
Did you see the supermoon this morning? It was magnificent!

Afternoon ladies. Sorry It's been a few days since I posted. I really don't know where the time goes. I seem to spend a lot of time pottering round our new home; it's good to be in love with our home again. I'd really lost interest over the past 4 years.

You're all amazing ladies, you really are. As I've read through all of the posts I felt so proud of you all as you're doing your best to cope with the never ending pain of estrangement. This is probably the hardest time of year to deal with, seeing the lovely things in the shops and wishing we could buy them for the GC we don't know. and BIG (((hugs))) for you all.

You're doing so well Luckylegs, try not to get dis heartened when you have a bad day. It happens to us all and what really matters is that we get through them.

Laughter is such a wonderful tonic and I know how lucky I am to have Mr. S. by my side as no one makes me laugh like he can. We went out for a lovely Thai meal on Saturday, just the 2 of us, and ended up crying with laughter. Can't even remember what we were laughing about but boy it felt great.

For those of you who do send cards and or pressies to your EC I do hope that something positive comes from your ceaseless generosity and compassion. We've sent cards to our GC as we always do but as you know, that's as far as we go.

I've had a couple of tearful moments for my GC, not ES though. I don't think of him half as much as I used too and if I do, I just feel soover what he's done and allowed to be done.

Hope you get some news soon Celeb, being in so much pain is really awful for you especially as it's preventing you from dancing which you love so much.

I'm off to look at my pm now Rhinestone.

Have a good evening everyone.

YogagirlThis is exactly what I have been saying about the children feeling entitled. " You didn't babysit enough?" Is there a law that you even have to sit?
This is what happened to us with my stepson. We stopped sitting regularly every week because we were caring for elderly parents . My daughter had no one to help her and I continued to sit one day a week for her. My stepson had his mom and mother in law and a paid sitter to help them. Maybe he was jealous of me helping my daughter. I don't know but it doesn't give them the right to Expect us to sit.
When I was bringing up my children the grandparents were asked to sit not expected to do so.
What was the decision from your Mediation?

I feel your pain Lucky. I used to wonder how people could say "I hate Christmas"...now I understand.

I had my son home with me for four days last week. It was wonderful, and we filled every minute. In that respect, I'm lucky. The love and respect is still there. However, at least for now, he will never be able to bring his little one, without a frightening amount of domestic abuse. Neither of us want her witnessing that, so for now her mother wins.

Much love and hopefully some peace to everyone.x.

Luckylegs big }}}Hugs{{{

I never envisaged this for me either, I did everything for my C, they were my world. Just heard through my ex, that when I went to court for visitation rights to my GC, nasty s.i.l was saying I had gone to take the C from them! how ridicules is that, at the same time he was saying I didn't babysit enough When they first moved out of my house into their own place, it was always me that babysat, then gradually it swapped onto his parents, which suited me, as I wanted to enjoy them when they were awake not asleep in bed, also I work full time, were as his mother has never worked a day in her life!

Hope everyone is ok, all gone quiet.
Those alone and estranged will probably know how I feel. Despite my resolve to make the best if it, this time of year everyone seems to be having people for Christmas or visiting family or have a partner.. I feel so down about everything and just wish it were over. How did I end up like this. When I was younger, juggling, family, job and travelling to look after family I never envisaged ending up alone. Losing those you love through bereavement was bad enough, but not to be part of your daughter's life, has been worse. To know you are not on their radar. Moan over, paint a smile on and shower and get out for the day, thanks for listening.

Ukecan, has your eldest got no one she can turn to, your sister must be in contact to know your daughters flat is cold and damp. If it were me, I would send those pyjamas and a card with a short message just saying you love and miss her, just that, what is wrong with a mother living her daughter?. However, I am inclined to being a bit of a soft touch and have got so much wrong myself, that perhaps I am not the best person to give an opinion.I just know that it is nice to be wanted.