Regrets about being estranged from people..

My sister decided to distance herself from me which was very hurtful as, though we have differing views about many things we are similar and have much in common. Also, we are, after all, sisters. After years of ignoring her cruel treatment of me I found that appeasing her made her worse not better. Once she sent me a birthday card with 'Once a cow always a cow' printed on the front and I cried all day. I have never been a 'cow' but looked after her when she was younger and my parents were undergoing a hostile divorce and neglecting us. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot take any more and am dropping the contact.

I feel, though, that it is a horrible waste and cannot begin to understand her state of mind.

Madamecholet

Can't believe I'm saying this but I absolutely agree with your post!! (Ha ha...)

Specifically, when you suggest these people believe they always right, and its everyone else's fault.

Ocassionally we all might think we're right and others are wrong, but rarely do we go to the extreme of estranging ourselves just because we see situations differently.

I would add that low self esteem can be a factor in estrangement - cannot cope with anyone who disagrees - so cut them off.

I think sometimes it's sometimes better to learn to deal with the estrangement. I don't think attempting a reconciliation with my sister was a positive thing. we got on ok for a couple of year's (mostly because I kept biting my tongue). He has a very sharp way of speaking and is very corrective and I began to realise that she made me feel worse than when I was alone. I realised I was wasting my time when she jokingly told me that she had had two bullying complaints at work but neither had been upheld. (She is a social work supervisor For some reason I thought that she only did it to me because she was copying our father. Now she makes manipulative comments to our mother about how I don't keep in touch now I no longer need her despite the fact that last time we were together I said that I didn't like the way she spoke to me and she said 'well we don't like each other do we'.
If an estrangement is causing regret then there probably has to be attempt to bridge it but I think there has to be a reason to believe that things will improve. Some people are just difficult and they have to be in someone's family. It's just bad luck if they are in yours.

Anya

Your post at 0811'this morning absolutely describes my sons partner. She has all of the characteristics you describe. It has been a year since she detached herself from my DH and me who have only ever shown her kindness and goodwill, yet she has accused us of 'bullying' and many other nasty things - all lies in an attempt to turn our son against us. She behaves like a petulant teenager and yet she is in her mid thirties and a mother! It took a while for us to come to terms with the fact that she is the bully.
In recent weeks she has made certain 'gestures' via my son which could be interpreted as a 'reaching out' but I cannot go through again what we have endured from her in the past. Leopards don't change their spots and I'm certain that even if we were to reconcile there would be more of the same somewhere down the road.

Good post Anya!

I think Elegran’s suggested response is perfect and also agree with Anya's advice to give it some thought before replying. The old friend obviously has the best of intentions, but the phrase “willing to draw a veil” suggests that Bluecat’s sister is portraying herself as the victim and takes no responsibility for her actions. The sisters were close in the past, but I think once there has been a really serious fall-out, it is virtually impossible to turn back time and re-create the former relationship.

We have estrangements in our family and I totally agree with Anya’s description of the characteristics of the people involved. I used to think they also had a need to be right, but I realise now it is actually an unshakeable belief that they are right and that anyone who doesn’t agree with them is the cause of the trouble. They will often triumphantly reel off names of family members who agree that they are the injured party, but often the relatives in question are in contact with both parties, and are trying to make fairly non-committal comments in an effort to keep the peace.

The OP asks if there are regrets when there is a death. We have had estrangements in our family in previous generations and I would say that attitudes do sometime soften in that situation, but it is mainly because the person who has gone cannot cause any more hurt and is no longer seen as a threat to the happiness of other family members.

Bluecat I feel the "drawing a veil" comment is not really appropriate - presumably you would want some kind of indication that she is sorry for her behaviour towards you as a child and the horrible things that were said re your daughter. As you say, the friend does not have the whole story and may think it's just a family tiff that has got out of hand.

You say the abuse continued for 5 years until she was 15, which presumably means she was 10 years old when it started. That seems quite a young age to engage in coercive sexualised behaviour and I wonder if there is a chance that something similar had happened to her?

If, deep down, you feel the pain that your sister and family has caused you might bring you more pain and lead to further discord, then I agree with Elegran that it might be a good idea to write to the friend who contacted you, along the lines she suggests. Though, as Anya said, it would probably be a good idea to think about it for a while before making any decision.

'I can't confront my sister - I just can't - I know she would deny it, say I was insane and spread horrible lies about me. I don't want to undo the work I've done with the counsellor and I don't know if I can pretend to myself that it never happened.'

That isn't normal. Normal people don't do that. You're so brave!

Your 'friend' is what is known as a flying monkey. Your sister has told him her side of the story. How hurt and upset she is. The toxic person gets someone to do their dirty work. Google 'flying money narc' and you'll get more information.

If I was you, ignore it.

Could you reply to this old friend - who has, after all, stuck their neck out to contact you on the subject - thanking them for their concern, but saying that they know only one side of the story, and that you really don't feel that YOU can draw a veil over the past - all the past - so you will not be acting on the suggestion.

You could acknowledge that it must have taken a lot of thought for them to write to you, and you hope that they will appreciate that you have also put a lot of thought into your decision.

Firstly don't rush into any reconciliation. Yes, this estrangement from your only sibling isn't ideal, but 'used to be close' is just that, it's in the past. She has behaved appallingly towards you when you were a child and towards your family.

You might have to live with feelings of regret if she dies. You shouldn't feel guilty, you are not in the wrong as far as I can tell. What you will feel if she dies is regret for what might have been had she been a true and loving sister.

I am living with the knowledge that I chose not to visit my sister on her deathbed. I don't regret that decision, but I am strong enough to deal with it and I had enough loving family around me who accept that was the right decision.

I'm glad this thread has come up, as I have a problem and I don't know what to do.

I haven't spoken to my sister or her family for about 8 years now. We had a huge falling out over nasty things they said about my younger daughter and her partner, who was originally their friend. (He is quite a bit older than my daughter but also quite a bit younger than my sister and brother-in-law.) Basically, my sister had always had a massive and very obvious crush on him, and was incredibly jealous when she found he was in love with my daughter. She spread all sorts of lies, her sons got involved and were very nasty, and the whole thing ended up in us becoming completely estranged.

As a result of this split, I somehow found the courage to tell my family that my sister had sexually abused me for about 5 years, until I was 10 years old. (She is 5 years older than me, so it went on till she was 15.) I had kept this secret for 50 years and tried to convince myself it was ok, but it wasn't and, after I had told my family, I became very upset and ended up having a year of counselling. That helped enormously and I made peace with the past and the end of that relationship.

However, an old friend of myself and my sister, who lives near them and sees them regularly, has recently written to me and asked me to reconcile with my sister. He says he "makes no judgement" about our argument, which is good because he hasn't heard my side of it and I know her version will have been lurid and untrue. Obviously, he knows nothing about the abuse - only my most immediate family know about it. He says my sister is willing to "draw a veil" over the quarrel and resume our relationship. What should I do?

On one hand, she is my only sibling and we used to be very close. There are things about her that I miss, particularly her humour. We are both in our 60s and in poor health. If I won't see her and she dies before me, will I feel guilty forever?

On the other hand, I can't see how the relationship could work. I can't see her interacting happily with my daughter and her partner, and one of her sons said such appalling things to me that I really don't want to see him again. However, I might be able to find ways round these issues, but I have faced the past and can no longer tell myself it was ok. I can't confront my sister - I just can't - I know she would deny it, say I was insane and spread horrible lies about me. I don't want to undo the work I've done with the counsellor and I don't know if I can pretend to myself that it never happened.

I haven't answered our friend's letter because I don't know what I should do. Sorry about the long post.

Anya, you described my own mother perfectly. I went to counselling for years and had more than one tell me to cut off contact with her. I decided against this but moved to another country (continent!) and even then I would get occasional letters and later, emails that would leave me shaking and sobbing like a child. BUT when she had a stroke at age 83, I immediately rushed to her side, and we had two wonderful weeks. It was like the illness took the meaness out of her, and she was sweet and loving, we shared some happy memories and laughed a lot and I am so grateful for that. There were only 4 people at her funeral as she had driven everyone away. But I am at peace with those end of life happy memories. (And ironically, this same scenario has just happened to a dear friend of mine here in England! I know we are both lucky, as illness and death cannot be planned for such things.)

I blame a lot of this stuff on the 'counselling' mentality we have been encouraged to embrace. The mantra of our generation was 'You're OK, I'm OK', then we had the Jerry Springer show with people applauding each other flouncing about saying 'deal with it' when they announced a decision that they knew would hurt others, then GP's tarted sending people off to counsellors who only and CBT practitioners who only have a part of the story to go on.

Facebook has posts everyday saying 'if people bring their dramas into your life walk away'...........all very well if you have somewhere and someone else to work to.

Oh Angela1961, that really puts my estrangement from my toxic ex step-daughter into perspective. She has written me hideous emails accusing me of causing the divorce. In my view it's usually half a dozen of one and 6 of the other. I am bouncing back her poisonous emails and know I will probably never see her again. Forgot to say her,father, my ex, died last year so she is probably in a bad place but I too, am grieving him. We were married for 20 years.

I have found estrangement nothing but a good thing.

For years I put up with toxic people in my life because I didn't want to upset my mother, whom I loved deeply. Since she died I have, thankfully, been able to let them go.

My family is full of control freaks and I realise that I have to watch myself very carefully because I am the same. Removing myself from them has been nothing but good for me as, when we're together one either has to fight hard to, "keep one's end up" or end up being trampled upon.

Control freaks are just no good for one another they feed off one another and the whole situation escalates at an alarming rate. I believe that I have at least taken a step towards becoming a more rational and calmer person, more laid back, more easy going by not surrounding myself with people who are constantly pressing my buttons and triggering old responses. My friends and grown up DC's have commented on my, "mellowing" in the last few years.

I know I have a long way to go and I'm far from being perfect but I can, at least, be pulled up now by someone saying that they think I'm back on the slippery slope and I will stop and take a long hard look and am capable of admitting (most of the time!) that I might not be right, or that someone else's opinion is just as valid even if it's not enough to change mine. That might sound pretty normal and usual to most of you but, believe me, in my family it's a first!

I also married a control freak which certainly didn't help matters and he, as my ex, is my only real, "trigger" now as he's such an accomplished manipulator. I try and keep as much distance as possible but sometimes it's hard when major events in the DC's lives force us together!

Life is too short to cling to people just because of DNA I'm certainly much happier surrounded by people I actually enjoy being with or even alone.

I hasten to add that I'd still respond if called upon in a crisis. I don't actively hate them, though I do hate the person I become when around them and the way it makes me feel.

I have been estranged from my youngest daughter since she has been 13 and she is now 30,married with 2 children of her own. My marriage broke up and my younger daughter choose to live with her father. My elder daughter with me. This in itself was a terrible blow but he then went about turning her against me. He made all sorts of accusations and of course at the vulnerable age that he was she took it all in. At that time I did not want to make a big thing of that and decided I would be the adult and try to wait and hopefully things would work out, sadly his large family closed ranks and also chose to turn her against me. I carried on trying to take an interest and involvement all to unavail. My solicitor informed me that at her age she had the choice of whether she wanted contact and would not be forced to see me- so I could not go down that avenue. When she was 18 I wrote her a heartfelt letter asking her to meet me and make up her own opinion of me. This was ignored. I always send cards and christmas/birthdays and still do. I also sent cards to my grandchildren whom I never met. In the early days how I never had a nervous breakdown amazes me. I would dearly love her to want to know me,but sad to say, I know very unlikely.

Spot on, Anya. I think it's especially that mental rigidity that blocks movement, prevents any possibility of rapprochement, reconciliation. So painful to be on the receiving end. Acceptance is the only option I think. No good banging your head against a brick wall.

my friends fell out with each other and now we have to meet with them separately, which is an inconvenience for the rest of us

jemimavintage, thank you for this thread.
Estrangement/separation of family members depends on which side of the separation you are,I suppose.
If you feel the need to separate your relationship from a family member, then you must have your reasons for doing so, and of course there are certain situations where that is necessary.
If you are the person who is estranged,then you will have a different perspective.
Certainly as we get older we do tend to look back at our actions towards others and I am quite sure that people don't intentionally go out of their way to cause hurt and pain to another human being.
(Of course there are exceptions.)
We often hear that people don't know why this happens, but in my experience there have been warning signs, we just choose to ignore them until it is too late.
I would always say, look to yourself, say sorry if you know you have overstepped the mark. Agree to disagree.
At a time when we are all living in such an uncertain and unsettled time, we do need one another.
We all have members of our family or friends that we don't get on with, but we don't have to cause them hurt and pain.
Estrangement in all its forms, always causes controversy, but in all cases someone somewhere is going through distress,and utter despair.

Just over 10 years ago my best friend of nearly 30 years stopped speaking to me and I still don't really know why. We had had a slight disagreement about something her husband had told me and I felt I had to tell her, not to upset her but because it was a serious issue. When I left her house that day I had no idea that would be the last time we would ever again speak properly. Phone calls, texts and emails unanswered and when I went to her house nearly 2 weeks later, she closed the door when she saw it was me. About 2 months later I received a horrible letter accusing me of trying to break up her marriage etc etc- totally untrue- and of having mental health problems. It was so hurtful to hear this from someone who had been my bridesmaid and I had been hers. She also told mutual friends and my own brother terrible lies about me. I was totally devastated and it took years to get over. Even now she crosses the road if she sees me.
Anya- your post has made a few things click into place. Thank you.

Red funny (not in a nice way) that they can't see that they are the toxic ones, isn't it?

Why does a person turn toxic!? Its not always the case of a bad upbringing, if you google 'personality disorder' it says that the causes are really unknown! it is a complex mental health problem, is it hereditary? So many questions and no clear answers.

Estrangement is difficult to live with but there comes the day when you have to accept that those people do not want to be in your life and you have to walk away. you cant be dragged down by these people no matter if their so called friends or family.

As Redheadedmommy has said these toxic people wont take any blame for their actions its always someone elses fault! These toxic people are very clever at twisting things and then you start to question yourself, walk away before its too late.

No, thankfully I don't Red but I recognise the 'type' and my antennae can pick them up very quickly so I avoid them like the plague now I am older and, hopefully, wiser.

Anya, do you know my MIL? You've described her perfectly.

Yes she has always been like it, it didn't happen just because she was a MIL. DH doesn't really mention much of his childhood, I get little burts every now and then.

No I don't mind!
From my point of view, you can't treat people like that and think it's ok. If that's how she treats her family I would hate to see how she treats people who she doesn't like.

X-posts Red