Regrets about being estranged from people..

That's exactly what we did with my FiL. In fact, we realised our later attempts at a reconciliation only increased the pressure on him. When his wife died, we were the first people he called and we were right back in each others lives from that moment. We have never discussed why we were out of touch, but he feels comfortable enough to speak about her and I am grateful for that because he did adore her. We have to do what we think is the best and live with the consequences.

Anya, you could be writing about two close relatives that I had. 'So sad - both dead now, having spent their last years as grumbling, bitter old women, estranged from the rest of the family because of...god only knows what was going on in their paranoid heads. Sadly of course it affects the whole family; the real tragedy of what might have, and should have been.

"The more you push for a reconciliation the further you push them away."

Yes, and the more you try to draw them into a closer bond, or try to get them to make up, the tighter the bolt on the door is drawn.

There comes a point where you have to just wait for them to take the initiative - or not.

very true Wilmaknickersfit, ( love the name lol)

There comes a time when you have to move on because bridges cant be built, no matter how much you try because the ones that chose the estrangement doesnt want to. The more you push for a reconciliation the further you push them away. Ive not closed the door Ive left it ajar and the family know where I am.

jeminavintage I don't agree with your opinion that Life is too short FOR estrangements (apart from in very very ultra severe cases)...

I have never been estranged from family members, but my DH was estranged from his father for most of the time of his father's 2nd marriage. His wife wanted him all to herself and eventually that's what she got. There were no big rows, just a cold shoulder and being ignored. It took us a while to realise my FiL was being subtly forced to make a choice between her and everyone else. He is a gentle, simple man and I'm glad to say they had a very happy marriage for over 15 years, just the two of them on their own. At her funeral her son was the only person from her family who attended and he was supposed to be the devil incarnate (turns out he's not). She was estranged from everyone else and never knew any of her GC. Happily my FiL fitted right back into our lives and we are glad.

That said, the older I get, the less time I will spend on trying to make everything OK or everyone happy. It can become self-destructive. As someone who thinks counseling and CBT is a good thing, I now believe everyone is responsible for their own lives and happiness. I will always do my best for family (and friends), but sometimes that might mean estrangement. It will be a hard decision, but I would make it. Life is too short and none of us live in isolation, so why should other loved ones suffer because of one person?

I find a lot of people are very much of the 'I'm alright Jack, so sod you!!'...mentality... And encourage others to be like that too..

I think someone else earlier said that the people who are estranging people and usually those who already have the kids, the support, the wider family - and those they're estranging are usually those who are lonely or alone. If only they could give 2 minutes to putting themselves in the other persons shoes.

Jem

Oh Gina848, some people really do only think of themselves... It's so so sad..

Perhaps there are families who just don't get on with each other. Perhaps can't be bothered to contact each other. Jealousy and greed does seem to figure large in some families.

I have a sister that dose not talk to me and I would pay a million pounds for some one or her to tell me WHY , I only met her 5 years ago as my parents split when we where little and meeting her and her little family had to be the hi light of my life , it ment the world to me and then it was nothing , no contact , rang and rang , no answers wrote letters , nothing , what did I do so wrong . Why is it that what you want so badly in this world you don't get , I can't even talk to our dad as he has passed away and my mum is not her mum , i miss my dad and now I miss a sister that I only had for a brief time , but at least I did get to know her and her little family , just wish it was more .

It's not that people are owed anything, just because they are relatives, but it's that WE perhaps should treat everyone with kindness and respect and check out our own negative agendas... How others choose to act, is up to them, but as Rhinestone pointed out, sometimes those who we assume are being horrible for effect, are actually mentally ill.. If they were physically ill, would we abandon them and have our kids effectively abandon them also? just because it fits our agenda.

There are underlying personal agendas (sometimes petty, sometimes not) underlying most estrangements, I would assume, from experience of seeing mine and other families operate. It's as tho people think they've got all the time in the world.. And as I said in a previous post, we have to hope that those who we gather around us, and away from others....never end up estranging US, on the basis of a whim, or on the basis of the whim of a new partner....

Jem

I think the situation is more complex than that, redheaded mommy. Physical abuse, as it is classed now....would consist of smacking. Sometimes as a kid, I was smacked when I felt it was inappropriate...maybe they made a quick assumption about a situation, lashed out..and had made the wrong call. Yes, that would be abuse but would that be a reason for me to break contact with them as an adult? I don't think so. But I can see situations where people with other grudge s might use something like that to break contact. So my sister, for example, doesn't like the fact that my mother talks about 'death' a lot. A lot of mothers friends are dying, and it's a topic that's on her mind. The sister takes exception to this because it's 'negative'. So she does things like: talk about death + smacks as a kid = reason to estrange. She piles up the evidence UNTIL is suits her case to estrange. And I've seen so many people act in this way with relatives..

Of course I don't get to decide what others do but in my opinion, it's toxic TO estrange from people, rather than healthy to estrange...because the fall out from it can be on so many levels, spanning such a long time.

Jem

I think one has to be careful not to become a 'victim' if someone decides they don't want to see you any more. DNA or legal ties with someone related to someone doesn't automatically give one the right to be in that person's life.
Why would I want to have anything to do with my father's widow for example? He married her when I was 22 and had left home and he died only four years later so I hardly knew her. I certainly didn't ever see her as my step mother.
One of my DC feels the same about her father's current wife. If he died tomorrow DD wouldn't make any effort to see her again. My other two would and that's fine also but one can't force oneself upon grown up children from a previous relationship if they don't want it no matter how long you were married to their parent and it's best just left.
Why shouldn't we be free to choose who we associate with? We pick and choose our friends so why not family? If you don't get on with someone why put yourself through 'duty contact'? As long as there's no animosity just stop sending Christmas cards and "forget" to send a change if address. I'm not "jealous" I just hate being dictated to about who I should see and how often and what I apparently "owe" people simply because they have attached themselves to a blood relative of mine.

But what you've said is your opinion. It's your life to live how you want. If you want to see your parents who mentally,verbally and physically abused/abuse you, that's your choice.

You don't get to say what other people should deal with or put up with. Estrangement isn't the answer your YOU but it is for other people.

My stepmother and daughter fit very neatly into your description, Anya. SM hated me mentioning anything that had happened prior to her arrival on the scene - and I mean ANYTHING, from my education, dead mother, holidays I had taken with my father; you name it, it sent her off in a blazing fit of sheer whirling jealousy, complete with screaming and deserting my father for weeks on end, until she was sure I had gone! I lived 2500 miles away, by the way. When my father died unexpectedly, he only had time left to write "I leave everything to my wife, knowing that she will do the right thing". Her ideaof this was to give me a £20 note and tel me to "F* off for ever, I'm giving you nothing".

Many years later, my daughters , having been exposed to their real winner of a father, who had deserted them sans mot 13 years earlier, decided that he (with the money) was a better bet that me (without the money). They tell everyone I am dead and I do not expect to hear from them again in my lifetime.

And no, I am not a jealous, nor toxic person in any way. Just have s* relations.

jenpax, I am so glad you worked that out with your daughter... Lucky daughter to have such an understanding mum, and lucky mum having a beautiful grandbaby in her life.. Lovely, lovely post..

I do think a proportion of estrangement is carried out by people who are spiteful or have a grudge to settle, or an agenda.

My sister decided at age 45 that my she no longer wanted to 'deal with' our parents who ARE and have been fairly abusive. So she went into an online group, learned all the key words: toxic, co-dependant, flying monkeys..etc...and came out with a plan and advice on what steps to take to estrange herself and her kids from them, so that SHE could 'heal'. I told her I didn't agree with all that, that she could quite easily work on how to deal with their personalities, just like she will expect HER kids to be able to deal with her personality when they get married and have kids....but no.....she started to go the route of telling me I was in some way...enabling them. I don't enable them....if they do something I don't like, I have it out with them there and then. And that's that. I don't do what she's doing, and brood, and overthink and decide that she is fairly perfect and everyone else is toxic to her life.

So 2 boys have lost the opportunity for any meaningful relationship with their grandparents. I find that very hard to bear, for the boys and for my parents..

Their other adult child, my brother...hasn't spoken to them for 25 years. They 'fell out' over something very trivial and he's never bothered to get back in touch with them. The mother of his kids binned them off, again...because they were 'toxic'. Again tho, she has to hope that when she's their age, that her kids or kids partners don't ambivalently and selfishly bin her off...for no real reason.

Estrangement isn't the answer unless the person being avoided is very very seriously awful. It shouldn't just be because: you don't like them (esp if there are kids involved), you've managed to label them as 'toxic' (but remember, there are NO non-toxic people...everyone is a complete pain, to some degree), you feel 'disrespected' by them, you have a grudge that you're trying to settle....etc etc...

The supposed peace of mind for one person, isn't worth the suffering for so many other people involved, imo...

My dad is actually not talking to me at the moment, called me all the names under the sun because he thinks I've not encouraged my daughter to stay in contact with them. I forwarded him an email I sent her only 5 days ago, telling her to make sure she tries to stay in contact with them. He STILL is saying that I've made no effort. I have made regular effort, over 15 very long years. So I'm now being estranged from my dad by my dad, because someone else encouraged my daughter to become estranged from my mum and dad (ex-husband, to settle the score from me leaving him).....while trying to deal with my own estrangement from my daughter (again, due to ex-husband settling a score).. Even tho my dad is estranging me in the cruelest circumstances ever, I'm never going to not be there for him. I understand that, perhaps he cannot comprehend that my ex-husband could be so manipulative.......dunno.....but I am not going to be dumping anyone....not my parents, not my daughter....heck, if the ex-husband wanted to become friends, I'd welcome him....even tho he's caused immense pain to me, and massive financial loss also.

Life is too short FOR estrangements (apart from in very very ultra severe cases)..

Hi SparklyGrandma (you sound like my mom! Fab name!)

Yes, it's such an eye opener when the penny drops. It's like reading a book. She told me that there would probley be an illness to try and pull you back in if the flying monkey failed, low and behold she did. 3 of them within a few weeks, then it trailed off and she's absolutely fine now.

It's like the councillor had met her. Everything she said she had described her, just like Anya. It was really emotional when the light bulb went on for us.

Notyetagran. I know exactly what you mean - in my case it is my sister. She had lied so much over the years and I finally had enough after our mother died. I haven't spoken to her since the Will was dealt with (I was the Executor). Sadly my son doesn't know my side of things as I haven't discussed them, he has believed everything my sister has said, both about my Mum and me. This has caused a distance between us as he believes his aunt is fantastic and everything she does is wonderful. I could tell him all the nasty things she and my late brother in law did but it won't make them any better and just cause more upset so I haven't. I have never said he couldn't see his Aunt or put any restrictions on his way . All I say is that I am done with it- my choice.

I unfortunately have had a lot of experience of estrangement in families. I fell out with my parents when I had my youngest child, and didn't speak to them for a year.
my father developed cancer and died during that year, and I will never forget getting the call from my mother to tell me!
have never forgiven myself for letting a stupid row do this, and it's has taken many years to come to terms with it and to forgive myself enough to move on!
6 years ago my youngest daughter got pregnant while doing her A levels (in difficult circumstances).I was really angry at the time, and didn't speak to her for 2 months (she stayed with a friend) in the end the misery the estrangement cost us both just became too unbearable and we reconciled. she moved home and had our little grandson,they still live with me and he is a joy and a delight in my life! One I would have missed out on if I had dug my heels in!
I guess my answer is think long and hard before shutting the door on a relationship, if never seeing the person again sinks your spirits no matter how angry you are with them, then just try to work things out, obviously this doesn't apply if the relationship is a DV one but if it's just a row causing the rift is it worth the pain you will have?
Looking back at the row with my parents I still think I had a fair point in an abstract sense,but sometimes being happy is better than being right!
Good luck

Hi RedheadedMommy,

A penny dropped when you mentioned in one of your comments to this thread 'flying monkeys' .... so that is what they are called. That is an eye opener. Sorry you have had this too.

Angela,am in the same position as you,my only daughter and her children are totally estranged from me,16yrs now ,parcels to grandchildren are returned as all cards.I had a total breakdown when it first happen,I would never have survived except for my HB and Doctor helping me.
Have now learnt to accept that if she no longer wants her parents in her life that is her choice and her right,I have moved on forgiven yes,but not forgotten.
Tried contacting the boys now they are in late teens,but never received any replies.In these sad situations no one wins,children lose loving grandparents......

I am estranged from my eldest brother, but knew he lived in Southport, for around 3 months a couple of years ago I started to have really strange thoughts that he had died!, I trawled his local newspaper for obituaries and found his house online and it was for sale. I just couldn't shake off this 'feeling' that something had happened. Around Christmas of that year, my other brother who lives in Cyprus contacted me to tell me that our brother had been in a really bad accident and was touch and go for survival! He had apparently EMIGRATED to Australia in the July, had the road traffic accident in October and was eventually discharged from hospital the following February. I get the odd progress report from my brother in Cyprus as he is in some contact with him (although the emigration was news to him as well). My estranged brother didn't have a very good home life (we were 3 kids) and he was chucked out at age 17 (I was 12), but for some reason, he doesn't want to know me. It was heartbreaking passing on the info via my other brother about my Mums illness, then death and him not wanting to know. But I feel there must be some closeness for me to have had those feelings.

this happened to me too Beth22. Luckily she has now moved away from the village. All very unpleasant. She went around saying I was depressed, had mental health issues etc. Mostly because she wasn't getting her own way.[I had a leg in plaster for almost 6 months and the last straw was Christmas - she still expected an invite to lunch - none of her 4 children will have her]. I'm sure her new neighbour's will soon find out what she has become.

Anya, you gave a very good description of the type of personality that can cut people out of their lives. My sister did this to our whole family, just cut us all out of her life, none of us knew what we could have done. Several years later she wanted to 'become a family again' and whilst being cautious, we did become a family again. It turned out my sister had had some severe mental health problems and had been mentally ill, but improved after treatment, and whilst we now are very close again, as we were before the break, she still suffers on and off and needs a lot of support, especially since her husband died some five years ago. Almost all of the traits you mention Anya were/ are present to a greater or lesser degree. I should mention that no one fell out with my sister, she was just ill. I don't know how I'd cope with a toxic mother in law, but I have ended a couple of friendships that seemed to have run their course and which I felt were becoming toxic because I feel if a friendship is becoming so toxic that I would be upset after every meeting, it becomes no longer beneficial, and therefore best left. Some people are unfortunately intent on making points in order to bolster their own self esteem and in doing so they cause pain to others, so just allowing the friendship to die seems the best option.

As someone who has has a mental illness if I stayed in contact with my MIL god knows where I'd be. I'm on tablets, had CBT and had classes on panic disorders. It was my councillor who told me to research toxic relationships. She gave me paper work and help sheets on how to behave.

I was in labour with DD2 for 3 weeks. I had medical intervention and was up and down from the hospital. Meanwhile my MIL was texting DH about how he wasn't making any time for her and how selfish he is.
When DD2 finally did arrive I'd gone 2 weeks over, so I'd been in labour for 5 weeks. Not even a text from her.

Within that 5 weeks and another 6 weeks after She'd told family I had an eating disorder, I didn't and never have. She made it impossible for her to visit then blamed us, she ignored DD1s birthday, spread lies about me on social media, texting nasty things to Dh and threatened me. Do you know why? Because we took a step back, didnt bend over backwards for her. We couldn't! Everything that my councillor said would happen did, it was like reading from a book. We had FIL ringing blackmailing us. Texts. Illnesses surfaced.

I had PND with DD1 and my midwife told us it might happen again with DD2 so to avoid what we did last time and just relax. That's what we told everyone. Family and friends. We had months of hell because of her.
I'm so glad I prepared myself with councilling before it kicked off as I was stronger mentally and knew how to disengage.

Life is too short to be treated that way. That was just 1 episode from her, we'd had years before all that too.