Regrets about being estranged from people..

My sister starting having serious mental helth issues about 15 years ago. Not sure whether they could be labelled, but she became obsessed with married a man she worked with, even though he was long married and not interested. She was in a long marriage herself, but she was convinced he really loved her and stalked him. I heard DS ended up in prison for this reason. It's a scandel how many people with obvious mental health problems end up in prison.

Anyway, she got divorced and me and her adult childen haven't a clue where she lives. She turns up on odd occasions, leaving presents on the doorstep or sending birthday cards months before that persons birthday.

She stole money from my mother, who had Alzheimers, many years ago, but I put this down to her labile mental state.

I'm sad because she's my only sister and I would love to have a sisterly relationship. I don't hate her, because she must be lonely having her personality disorder.

I am estranged from my sister.Dont know what I've done except becominga gran.without going into detail she won't be a gran now.
In all honesty for years I did all the running keeping in touch even before the gran thing.shes my older sister.when she cut me out,I was a bit upset but I'd had enough of rolling over and sayin sorry when there was no reason for me to be.she was always super critical of me,husband and family.she done it to many people including her own daughter.i am happy now without her in my life.maybe we are both better without each other...

I consider myself very fortunate that I have close elation ships with both my children, which in turn means I can see lots of my grandchildren. However I have several friends who are estranged from their families and it seems so sad that whatever issues there are, cannot be resolved. I don't feel smug about my good fortune as I recognise that all these relationships take hard work and often different solutions have to be found to resolve issues.

LinM48 Has the hospital refused to speak to you about your mother, or is it that your father says that you don't have authority? As she is your mother, surely you have a right to contact them?

Notyetgran, this is something I tried to rationalise over the years. When I was little, I felt that I had a dirty secret and that I was as much to blame as my sister. Then, when I got older, I told myself that all kids play "doctors and nurses." Not that what happened was just on the "I'll show you mine and you show me yours" level. It was much more than that, and I found it incredibly difficult to put into words to my counsellor, so I'm not going to attempt it here. Enough to say it was intimate, intrusive and has undoubtedly affected my sexual experiences for the rest of my life. Anyway, in my teens, I wrote it off as "play" and buried it away.

It was not until I had my own daughters, who also have an age gap of several years between them, that I looked at them and realised that it would not be normal for the older one to do such things to the little one. I also realised that it wouldn't happen with my girls - they wouldn't even shower together unless they were both wearing pants! - and that big sisters didn't normally do these things to little ones. I saw that something was wrong but I didn't want to think about it, so I buried it away.

It isn't easy, though, to keep things buried. In later years, there were a number of occasions where my sister made remarks that seemed like sheer hypocrisy to me - where she would condemn someone, particularly a child, for molesting another child (she had a friend who worked with disturbed children, who used to tell her these things) and I wanted to scream, "But you did it too!" She also said that a friend's sister who accused him of abusing her when they were kids (oddly enough, when he was 10 and she was much younger)was a liar who had been "put up to it" by her husband and psychiatrist. (Never seemed to occur to her that it might have been the reason why she needed a psychiatrist in the first place.) She was vehement about it, although she had never met the woman, and I had a horrible feeling she would say something similar about me if I ever dared to open my mouth.

Would I ever have confided in anyone, if my sister and I were not estranged? I don't know - maybe not. But I did, and my family were appalled. They considered it abuse. I went a bit crazy for a while, and my daughters took me to my GP, who sent me to a charity dealing with women who had been sexually abused as children. The lady who listened to my story in the first place, and the counsellor who listened patiently every week for a year, were very kind. They were in no doubt that it was abuse, given the age gap between us, the seriousness of what was done, and the fact that it went on till my sister was in her teens (even after she had started dating the man she would later marry.) I don't know whether it is abuse when a 10 year old does these things to a 5 year old, or if it changes at some point between 10 and 15. I suspect that, if she had been a boy, it would be more readily identified as abuse. That is another thing that makes me feel weird about myself, the fact that it was incest between sisters instead of brother-sister, which seems to be much more documented and recognised. The counsellor pointed out that girls and women can be abusers too.

So...basically, it is a question that bothers me and makes me doubt myself sometimes. Then I look at my kids, and my grandkids, and think, "No...what happened wasn't normal."

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.

I am estranged from my toxic sister, for over a year now. She is a complete controlfreak with a frightening temper. I only wish I had cut her out of my life much sooner, then she wouldn't have been able to cause so much pain and sorrow.

I defo don't doubt the experiences people are sharing here and one of my least favourite sayings is: 'oh, it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other'. In my experience, it never is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.. and when people say that, it basically says to the real victim: you're just as bad...

...what worries me a bit, is when people talk about others as being 'toxic'....but don't seem to mention or recognise if they themselves have any part at all in how things worked out.. Some people are defo worse than others, but none of us are perfect or anywhere near perfect. It's rough feeling like we should stand in judgement of others worth...and throw them away if they get judged worthless.. You can guarantee that another person will say that that person is fine, and good.. It's so subjective and all part of what's gone on in the past, people with grudges influencing other people etc.. In my case, I left my first husband and for 15 years he's waged a war against my reputation and 99% succeeded in destroying my relationship with my daughter..making me look like a vile individual, and making himself look like an angel. It's more easily done than people would think. And to fairly innocent people too - labelling them 'toxic' on the basis of hidden agendas..

After what I've been through with this, I could never ever throw someone away. They were literally have to be Adolf Hitler or something..

Jem

Sorry - mant "acceptance".

Oops posted too soon...
...my mother is safely in the care system but he is now trying to control me with emotional blackmail/refusing to let me have authority to speak to the hospital so I am totally reliant on him to get news of my mother and I have no way of finding out whether he is telling me the truth or just his version of it

in my case I have discovered that my father may have caused rifts so family members kept away and isolated my mother so they could not witness what was happening so he could continue to control my mother for his own selfish needs. Thanks to a plan of his backfiring

A few years ago, my much younger, and much loved Brother suddenly distanced himself from me when we had always been very close. I could not understand why, all I did know that his personality had changed. It got to a point where I could not talk to him, so relied on emails. The last one that he sent contained such Vitriol, that I had to tell him that whilst I loved him dearly and always will. I will always be there for him if he needed me, regardless, but for now enough was enough. This decision was absolutely heartbreaking, but I had no choice believe me.
Then right out of the blue about 18mths later, my Brother 'phoned me
His first words were "Hi Sis, I think that we have a bridge to rebuild".
I cried as I told him that our bridge was never destroyed, never would be.
Only then did I find out that my Brother had been suffering with PTSD. Someone had poured petrol over him, and tried to set him alight. Thank Goodness this person failed as they were wrestled to the ground just in time by several people. That is just the beginning of the story, it gets worse, but enough said.
I am just so glad that I did not burn any bridges and alienate my Brother, and we are once again best of friends.

jemimavintage and others - reading these posts has made me very sad as much of the behaviour described is very familiar to me.

I expect that none of us want to be estranged from people, but there is only so much that one person can take. From my experience, these are damaged individuals who want to make their problems your problems - it's always all your fault.

I had a toxic mother and once - when she told my DH she wanted a reconciliation - he made it known at my request that I did not want this. I rejected the idea because her behaviour over the years had made me find her repellent.

I never regretted the decision because I knew she could not change, would refuse to recognise how hurtful she had been and even though I'm sure she knew she'd caused the problem, she would never admit it. Drawing a veil over it wouldn't have been good enough for me.

jem and others - only you can work out if a reconciliation is what you want. If you think the people concerened will start treating you with respect in future, it may be worth a go.

It's probably been in another post, but what price forgiveness? Some people say you feel better for it. I think "accetance" - as many have said here - is the best that can be achieved - and after years of abuse, even that is hard.

Smileless2012, how have you coped day after day with the estrangement from you son? It's one of the toughest asks in the world, I think, to 'ask' someone to cope with being estranged from their child (adult child)..

As far as 'toxic' people go, I don't think I've ever met anyone who doesn't have some level of toxicity, or some level of pain the in rearness about them... Surely we shouldn't be automatically judging whether people fit OUR lives...and instead be accommodating people who..now and then..might brush us up the wrong way...but who are otherwise, family..

Jem

Bluecat, I would give it a go. That's a horrible orrible situation you faced with her as a kid, and then later on...but it seems like a part of you wants to close the door on that and see if there's anything left NOW....to build any sort of relationship on. If it was me, I would.. but I'd also keep it at arms length for a while..

Jem

Thanks radicalnan, you've just confirmed something that really upsets me too.....the memes of 'if people bring dramas into you life, walk away'.. The problem with that mentality is that no-one is perfect, and we all should tolerate each other and learn to live with each other, imo.... Life's too short to be cutting people out of your life or you kids lives.

notyetgran - I know what you're saying, I just find it hard to understand...but I can defo hear that you've suffered in trying to deal with difficult people..

Jem

Angela1961, my situation is something similar to yours and my heart is breaking into two. It's been about 15 years now of a slow awful decline in the relationship. Not on my part. I've overlooked an incredible amount of contempt from my daughter but just recently she said she no longer wants to have contact with me. She is my only child. I have fought SO hard to make things right.. I don't think anyone could have fought harder for her.

Even now, all I'm concerned about is that SHE will have to live with the regret, when she gets older, and realises the damage that's been done.

It's the worst, worst pain...

Jem

Luckylegs9, you've just written what I could have written myself. I really really don't understand it... My parents were pretty awful (very awful infact - mentally and physically) and I could never imagine even contemplating cutting them out of my life... And to then have the threat of being cut out of peoples lives myself overy quite trivial matters... How do people manage to do it... It's so difficult for me to understand.

thanks for your post,

Jem

Our posts crossed notyetagran

What you describe is sexual abuse.

So many sad stories, but what a supportive thread. The best side of GN.

to those who are and missing loved ones and to those who've made the decision to move on.

Ok please don't jump down my throat because this is a genuine question.

8Can sexual activity between two children only a few years apart in age be termed, "sexual abuse"? What age difference would you all consider big enough to render it, "abuse" rather than simple mutual exploration? Would it depend upon the age of the, "perpetrator" more than the age difference? You see, from what I can see of Bluecat's story I would have said that a 10 year old, "abusing" a 5 year old was a bit of a grey area. Did that 10 year old really realise what they were doing? Certainly by the time she was 15 absolutely, no question at all!

I only ask because what would you think of a 13 year old, "abusing" or "experimenting" with his 9 year old sister? I realise that there is only a four year age difference not five but I, personally, feel that at 13 he should have known that what he was doing was deeply wrong. I have had it drummed into me that it was just one child playing with another and that I'm overdramatizing.

As I say, really not passing judgement or anything just interested in everyone's opinions.

So sorry for your experience, Bluecat I really feel for you.

I'm so sorry - with me it was DD1, who managed to split the whole family with terrible lies which led to an innocent man spending 17 months inside and destroyed her sister's close relationship with her half brother. We now have no contact with either DD, nor with my GS and it breaks my heart. I tried to build bridges, but DD1 was never going to be reconciled. The awful thing is that she was always mean and spiteful and I don't know what I did to make her that way.

Thank you all very much for your wise advice. Our friend's letter was a bolt from the blue and reduced me to tears - he put it inside my birthday card! - and I think I'm going to have to write back along the lines you have suggested. My daughter, the one targeted in the original argument, has said that she will support my decision either way but is worried that, if my sister came back into my life, all the unhappiness I dealt with during the counselling could come flooding back. Her older sister agreed and, having read our friend's letter said, "He seems to think she is graciously forgiving you - tell him to f**k off." I wouldn't go quite so far, but I do wonder whether my sister asked him to intervene or if he has just decided to act on his own initiative. I suspect that she has made him feel he has to do something, without actually asking him outright - she is incredibly good at manipulating people.

Eloethan, I have asked myself many times whether she was abused herself, and I have talked about it with my counsellor, and I have come to the conclusion that I don't think she was. I remember, when I was small and I asked her why she did these things, she told me that she got the idea from watching me touch myself when I was a baby. As an adult, of course, I understand that all small children explore their own bodies out of curiosity but, when I was 5, this just made me think it was my fault. The main reason, though, why I don't think there was an adult involved is that my sister has always had a very strong sense of the dramatic. She admits she enjoys an enormous row, even though they leave everyone else feeling awful, and when she is angry she will say the most terrible, hurtful things. There has never really been a line she wouldn't cross and I am pretty sure that, if someone had abused her as a child, she would have denounced them, maybe after they were dead and probably to their nearest and dearest. If our situation was reversed, I don't think she would have waited half a century to say something, and I guess she would have said it in front of my family. I don't know whether that makes her braver or crueller than me, but it is just the way we are.

Thank you again, all of you.

Fairydoll, I am glad we are in agreement.

I totally understand why you are wary about the apparent “reaching out” and your feeling that it will eventually just be a re-run of what has happened in the past. I have been in that situation myself and I agree with Jaycee that sometimes the only solution is to accept that some relationships are never going to work and move on. Easier said than done though and it is always sad to have to accept that a previously close relationship will never be the same.

Anya not only have you managed to describe my d.i.l. in great detail but sadly our ES too. Although not all of the 'attributes' you've listed apply to him, many of the them do. I was quitewhen I realised that was the case.

I regret and always will, our estrangement from our son and the inevitable estrangement from our only GC. I regret that I'll never hear him say 'mum', that I'll never be able to give him a hug, that we'll never again have the wonderful relationship we once had (or did we). Most of all I regret that I couldn't reach him, that my love for him wasn't enough.

We are estranged from some of DH's siblings. They were toxic when young and no different now. My dear old Mum summed one sister up saying "she could start a fight in an empty room"!
Well she and the other toxic sister are not making fights with us any more! We simply just keep out of their way, mercifully one is abroad, not that that stops her attempts with toxic phone calls. DH now just ends call.
Funnily enough it seems they thought it was the rest of the world at fault. . . .they never saw they were the common factor in any problems?
Best avoided I think, very sad, but it's the choice of folk who choose to live like this.