Which country should my son and his children ex wife live?

Grannylynn i felt the same as you and stayed in the south until the youngest was 22 years.

It's never as black and white as 50shades implies....the marriage must have been in some kind of trouble for her to have an affair in the first place You don't fall into someone else's arms if you are happy so I m guessing their marriage troubles go back a long way Your son found a new partner which you say was on the rebound so presumable fairly quickly .... then they decided to try again so his girlfriend got the heave ho ( more lives being hurt) It sounds as if they are both acting like headless chickens looking for other loves before cleaning up the mess of this broken relationship if the baby is two there has been all this happen in two short years with other people being brought into the whirlpool
I would think they need mediation (which may be expensive) They certainly don't seem able to untangle all the wires on their own and family getting involved will only make matters worse I know you said counselling didn't work but maybe it was all too new and raw then or maybe they didn't get the right counsellor Mediation unlike counselling will look for practical help which will suit them both and the girls
It's hard being so far away but running away although that is the most natural reaction in the world ( and I m guilty of running home) is far more difficult if both parties are good parents ( mine wasn't )
Good on you for seeing both sides of the problem it's always easier to gather your own and blame the others
I wish you really well in this... hardest thing in the world is watching your grown up kids hurt but stay well out of it you CANNOT intervene in any way without making things worse

In no way is your ds "dictating his wife's life". Her parents are trying to emotionally blackmail you and your ds. Dil did this to herself by having an affair. I would be advising your ds to put an alert on the kids passports so they cannot be removed from nz without his permission and if i were him i would not allow dil to take them to uk to "visit". If she went and did not return them, (which sounds highly likely in this case) she will be forced to return and as a precis poster said, possibly arrested. There is also no such thing as "custody" now.

Speldnan... Apologies! I should have read your second post more carefully. No matter what happens, you have every right to support your son. I also realize that your DIL bears much of the blame for the situation in which she now finds herself. I would add that based on what you just told me, there isn't even enough of a marriage left to salvage.

Perhaps a solution would be for DIL to choose another city in NZ where she can live and work and start afresh. They could both enjoy shared custody. The trade off would be that either she, your DS or the girls would have to spend time back and forth. They could attend school on one city and alternate vacations and holidays in the other, or some similar arrangement depending on distance.

In the end, it wasn't the children who created this mess and so it's now up to the adults to find a workable solution for the girls'sake. This is not going to be an easy fix unless both parties are willing to compromise and make sacrifices. I'm so sorry you find yourself in the middle of this.....I would be heartbroken!
Best, Willa

faults on both sides but what will be gained by forcing the childrens mother to stay somewhere she isn't happy,especially if she has to stand by and see her ex make a life with someone else.

It's the children's life that should be the first concern and they need both parents. They are also New Zealander's by birth. It's a no brainer

Shazmo24 The same applies in the US.
I have a granddaughter who barely knows me I am a voice and a photograph.
We have nothing in common kind permission of her U.S father who made sure he would have her mother arrested if she attempted to bring her over to visit me.The UK have no power as they allowed this system which I believe started after WW11 when so many british girls married GI's but then wanted to return home.

Willa45 your view is exactly the OP view but I think they are both to blame really. He left originally because of my DIL affair. It was v sordid because she told him about it 2 days before the birth of their baby. There was a doubt about the paternity of the child so my DS had to get DNA tests. Luckily both girls were his, however he felt he could never trust his wife again after all the agony she put him- and us here, through. He was honourable though and stayed at home to support his wife and baby through the first few months and never voiced blame to her. It was only later that he met this other woman and would not start anything with her until he'd left home. It was rebound I suppose but she seems a nice girl, a Kiwi. Now it looks like he's messed things up with her too! There are always 2 sides to these things but it is my duty as a mother to support my son. I forgave my DIL and hold no animosity towards her.

Speldnan, I'm so sorry you find yourself in this position. I'm in a similar situation in that my DD's priority is her DD and her ex's is himself. I think you have done the right things so far and you have to go on with that. We keep wanting to "interfere" in our DD's situation but just have to rein ourselves in, it's all so difficult and I really feel for you with even more complications. Brilliant practical advice from others.

If I am reading correctly between the lines as they say, the fact that your son has lived with another woman for some time now and that he's been separated from his lawful wife for eighteen months, suggests that your son may be the one at fault for the break up. He is also the one who (legally) has the right to force the family to stay in NZ because he's willing to give up his wife but not the girls. It seems to me your daughter in law has gotten herself into a pickle and a very raw deal. Perhaps you can talk some sense into your son. If he can only find happiness with someone else, it isn't fair for your dil to be 'trapped' thousands of miles from home and family without any support. If he truly loves his girls, he should do the honorable sacrifice which is to give their mother the freedom to come home with the children. If he doesn't like that arrangement he can still..... 1. try to save his marriage 2. Move to the UK with or without his new love interest

The DIL needs to get good legal advice. She cannot just move without the childrens' father's permission and an agreement in place. If she does she could face charges of parental abduction and ultimately lose custody.

I had a friend in this situation - her DH left her for another woman while she was in the USA for a family wedding. She was very tempted to just not go back al all but luckily she spoke to a lawyer friend who explained Hague Convention and the risk she was taking of losing custody so she returned and got a lawyer. She was eventually able to return to the US will primary custody but had to return her child to his father for 6-8 weeks per year

No surprise them getting back together didn't work, he loved another woman .

Sorry but her parents are doing what you are doing, putting what their child wants first,

Speldnan now you have mentioned that so much has been going on very recently I can see why everyone is in such a state your Dil may have thought all was forgiven and he was back and she is now upset all over again and trying to get at him the only way she can think of via the children. I hope they start to talk truthfully to each other soon.

Shazmo24 how interesting, I guessed this is probably a fairly common problem these days. I shall tell my son about going to court to allow home visits, though I assume this couple must've arranged custody of the children through the courts which my family have not done yet.

I have a friend in this situation. ..she and her then partner both left the UK to NZ (they are both British) and went on to have 2 boys and they are now NZ citizens.
They broke up their relationship (not married) & I know that she'd love to come back to the UK but the boys father won't agree to it.
When she came back for a holiday last year with the boys she had to go to court to apply for this...If she hadn't gone back she could have been arrested.
The boys are settled in school and she always puts their needs first.
When the boys father went to live on Auckland (she's in Wellington) the boys still flew up (he had to come down to get them) to see him every other weekend.
However much she wants to come back without their father's consent she never can until they are adults.

Ps btw the couple had counselling but I don't think it helped as they weren't able to be honest with each other from what I've heard.
Jinty44 you are so right about the rose tinted glasses but how to get her to recognise this? She's a career woman and also thinks coming back here would be better for that- but what price her children? Child care is not nearly as good or cheap as it is in NZ.
She's thinking of coming back for a holiday but I'm scared if she brings the kids with her she may not return- I wouldn't put it past her parents to collude in this.plus the older one would miss school.

So interesting hearing other people's take in this problem. My GC are little- 6 and 2 and were born in NZ. My oldest GD is happy in her school but has had a few behavioural problems since their parents broke up. My DS has been loathe to mention divorce since he and his wife had been managing the care of the children well- this was until recently when the parents did decide to give their marriage another go. It's complicated but my DS had heard a rumour that my DIL had a BF in Auckland and was thinking of moving there, he panicked and left his new partner of 1 year who he seems to really love to give his marriage a last try. This was because my DS is devoted to his little girls and is terrified of losing them.It's been a disaster though! DS has been pining for his GF, he and his wife have been rowing the whole time and obviously don't love each other any more ( the BF didn't come to anything anyway) but it has triggered this crisis where DIL thinks the answer is to leave NZ.
Her parents have visited several times over the last year to try to help her but this recent drama has just about finished her off! I do really feel for her and so does my DS but he thinks none of them will be better off leaving Wellington where they have a pretty good life. My DS is about to move out again as the relationship with his wife has become really toxic and no good for the kids either.
I'm just hoping once things settle down my DIL will get back into a life which she will be happier in. What makes it worse for her is that she is aware that my DS is trying to win back his GF ( but that's another story!)
I think relations between myself and her parents have probably soured forever but I really couldn't do what they asked (and my ex husband agrees with me)
What a saga! Eastenders has nothing on my family!!?

My DH's ex swept his children away to the other end of the country after their divorce without so much as a 'by your leave.' The children were excited because they were sold a dream and the reality of not seeing their father on a month-to-month basis rather than the daily contact they were used to was completely brushed aside. Fast forward to the present day and they are all back up living near us again. His ex is missing out on having her adult children nearby and a meaningful relationship with any of her grandchildren. All the children felt they were cheated of their father whilst growing up. My husband felt the children would have hated him if he had tried to stop them moving whey they were younger but some of the things that have emerged since do make us wonder if we should have fought it.

It seems like the OP's DIL needs a reality check along with some Counselling to help her come to terms with the situation. However, I agree with everybody who says the OP shouldn't get involved, it sounds far to risky.

Great post, Jinty44!

I agree with all those suggesting that dil simply go home for a visit or her parents spend a "long holiday" with her in NZ. Problem is, Op, you can't be the one to suggest any of this. What if dil takes the kids home for a visit and decides to stay? Ds may blame you. What if the parents come to visit and there's drama between dil and her mum? They may get angry at you for having suggested it (not very reasonable, but I don't think you're dealing with reasonable people.) I don't mean to suggest that you be selfish, but making suggestions may do nothing else but lead to people turning against you.

They can think of these possibilities just as we can. They need to come to it themselves. I hope it helps you to realize there are a couple of happy medium solutions if dil and her parents choose to take them. But, imo, you need to continue to stay out of it.

"The children have already suffered an upheaval at home and now she thinks bringing them to a different place entirely will be a good move....for her presumably, what about them?"
The children should be the priority. Presumably they were born in NZ? Both under 7?

Whilst I believe the children would adapt to living in the UK quickly, they would miss their friends (at first, anyway) and they would miss contact with their father. Whether they are in NZ or UK, their mother seems to be the resident parent, and her happiness and mental health will have a large affect on their happiness and development.

The problem, in my opinion, is why the mother is desperate to return to the UK - because she sees it as a solution to her problem of depression. Her depression may partially spring from her isolation from her family, old friends, general support network - it's not uncommon for people who emigrate to feel homesick and isolated. That you son can prevent her from bringing the children back to the UK (and I believe he can) must make her feel helpless, which could only increase her depression and make her focus even more on 'coming home' being the solution.

However, returning to the UK is probably not going to be the solution. I have seen at first hand the rootlessness that emigration can bring. When they were over there, they were homesick and wanted to come back. Happy for three months, then missing over there. This played out a couple of times, back and forth.

Would it be possible for her to come for a longish holiday? If the children are young enough it won't interfere with their schooling. She could then see that the UK is not the answer. If she doesn't actually get on with her parents, the realisation might not actually take very long. All her old friends will have moved on, she'll probably feel as isolated here as she does there . And with the prohibitive cost of housing, could she even afford it? If she's not close to her parents, living with them would quickly become horrendous. Moving out from them would need a job, deposits - the practicalities could be insurmountable. Which will do her depression no good at all.

Of course this could all be very expensive, and if her parents are domineering they might be able to make her feel unable to leave again, uproot the children again.

So, ideally - your DIL and son have to TALK. Talk about her depression, isolation, what actually moving back to the UK would really mean. Deal with her depression-fuelled rose-tinted glasses of life back 'home'. Emphasise that the UK and everyone in it has moved on since she left. She would not be coming back to what she left - she might not feel she belonged any more, and then what?

Her parents should stay out of it but I can understand their concerns, only natural that they should be concerned about their DD. Upsetting for everyone.

NZ laws are different to ours but it might be an idea if your DS were to seek the advice of a Lawyer. Hopefully with time your DiL will begin to feel happier and things will work out. You haven't said if your DGC were born in NZ.

I think when a marriage breaks up and you are left with children there is always the urge to run home to your parents where some of the responsibility will be taken from you and you will feel supported. I know I had this when I divorced. I am so pleased now that I didn't do this. Children need contact with their father. If you are in contact with your DIL I would urge her to think carefully before she makes any decisions. I would also contact her parents and tell them that you aren't prepared to tell her she must come back to them and I would ask them how they will feel if in years to come their GCs turn around and accuse them of separating them from their father. It's something for the couple to sort out and parents should be careful of any interference.

It is very sad when a marriage breaks down, especially so when there are children involved. I can understand the DIL's parents wanting to have her and the children back in the UK, especially if she doesn't have any support in New Zealand, but wonder what the children think about this move? Are they too young to be impacted greatly or old enough to make a choice about moving? It is important that what is best for them is taken into account, and that might well be to stay where they are for the present if they are happy and settled. Perhaps the DIL's parents could go out to stay for a month or so to help her to get a routine established and have time to make new contacts that might form a support network for her? Is there a New Zealand version of Gingerbread perhaps? We all want our children to be happy and it does hurt greatly when things go wrong for them. the temptation to feel that if they were back at home things would be fine is quite normal, but if help and support could be provided for the DIL she might well find she prefers to stay in New Zealand after all.

She could always leave the children with their father and come home. No reason at all for her to be the one who takes all the responsibility. That could be her ultimation to him, such a suggestion would certainly concentrate minds.

This one is going to be extremely difficult to sort out, has your DS or DIL seen a Solicitor to find out exactly what the position is? I guess you and your Dil parents are frantic as how do you deal with all this half a world away. I would want my daughter home too. Only they can sort it out in the end and although you can support your son by talking things over with him I would be very careful about giving advice specially as he will be dealing with legal matters in a different country. By the way after 18 months is there any talk of divorce, is there a slight chance they could get back together?