Should we interfere?

What exactly is the nature of this man's business? If he's self employed he should just have filed a tax return, so my advice would be to suggest your daughter asks to see it and then if it demonstrates that he's really frittering his time away and not earning much he should be urged to get another job.

Belinda

I posted in the wrong thread (Suport for Estrangement). Sorry!
I have no idea how to cut and paste from my IPad so I’ll summarise - suggest you use the money you are subsidising the family with to employ a private investigator. Armed with as much information as you can supply them with, they can report back to you re his movements. It may not be a good outcome but you cannot let this situation continue,

Oh my goodness, it’s one of those days for me - I see someone has already suggested a private investigator.

If he works from home, is he a Ltd company? If so, you can check Companies House and see his accounts. It’s all out there for everyone to see. I was shocked a year or so when I discovered how many websites have my name and other details about me displayed because I am the company secretary of a Ltd company. No hiding place.

Maybe his business is in trouble and has been for some time, and he is throwing good money after bad into it.
You would think though, that it would be difficult to maintain normality under most of the situations suggested
I have just thought: do you think your daughter may know or suspect where the money is going? Perhaps her 'moaning' is her way of hoping you may ask her outright, so she can tell you?

If this woman and her partner have been together for 5 years and have 2 children why on earth has she not asked him exactly how he earns his money and what is happening to it.

What kind of a relationship can she possibly have with this man, where such a long time into a relationship, candour about the basics of life are entirely missing?

In a situation like this I think you, your DH (and your DD) should assume that whatever he is doing is either dishonourable or dishonest until he explains what his business is, what his income is, and what it is being spent and provides proper (doumentary?) evidence to prove it. Asking to see his tax return would be a good start.

Is it possible that he has lost his job and is too ashamed to admit it and is, to use your expression, SEEMING to work long hours, and his only income is JSA?

Whatever the cause, I do not understand why you are paying for holidays and flights. Your DGC will not suffer because they do not jet off to Majorca or the Seychelles every summer. If you must help, limit it to basics: mortgage, possibly Council Tax and things for the children.

But at the root of the problem is your DD not being prepared to find out from her partner, what he does, how much it pays and where his money goes

I thought that too, MOnica. He's lost his job and doesn't want to admit it.

He could be gambling you don’t have to leave the house to do that I too don’t understand how they could be together 5 years and no one seems to know what work he does from home he’s not even going out of the house but you don’t know his business Maybe there isn’t a business at all and he sits on his computer all day playing games and losing money
A private detective isn’t going to help if he doesn’t leave the house
Why on earth are you paying for their holidays if you want take the grandkids away for a holiday with you and your husband but you are enablers keeping his lifestyle going
Wake up and smell the coffee

I must admit I cannot understand this. Are you to fund their lifestyle forever, because that's what your doing. They don't need holidays anyway, I went eight years without one as lots of people do. It isn't helping them. If they get into debt and go bankrupt, that is their decision and only them will they face up to things. How long before your own home is threatened.

Why on earth are you paying for holidays?!!!! I would only ever help out in a dire emergency, and holidays don't come under that heading!!!

Stop enabling his behaviour and then your daughter will have to sort her own problems out. You can't express concerns and carry on subbing their lifestyle.

Your DD has to confront and tackle the problems within their relationship, not you or anybody else.

All you are doing at present is making things worse and you have to ask yourself why you are doing that? Colluding with another person's downfall is wrong.

Tell your DD there will be no more money and allow her to sort her own problems.

You are too nice and naive for your own good, and you are enabling this awful situation to continue unchallenged. He is clearly laughing all the way to wherever ?? Nobody knows what he is up to, and your daughter is clearly unhappy. If you are well off, surely you want your wealth for your daughter and grandchildren not wasted on this man with no morals or conscience, who just takes everything you blindly offer. Its not interfering when you are being dragged into this scenario with constant requests for money, this entitles you to start asking some very blunt questions as something is very wrong. I know you have done this to help your daughter, but in the long run the truth will help her more. Be angry that he is not supporting or helping your daughter as a husband should, and calmly use this anger to confront the situation.

There could be any number of reasons already suggested such as he has lost his job and not told dd, gambling, historic debt, or even another family although less likely if he is always in house. You need to take advise from nannarose and tell dd you are having a spending review as your funds are dwindling. She what she says. Is she prepared to have frank discussion with partner to try to find out what he earns/job he has. It sounds like a very shallow relationship if she knows so little about him. If she gets nowhere then I personally would hire private investigator but yell one as see what s/he can find out. I would also talk to dh telling him you love dd and dgc too but throwing money at them without attempting to solve issue is not in her best interest. I would continue to pay for some dgc activities but stop all non essential payments and tell dad she needs to act to protect her home and dc future but you will be available for emotional support and limited financial support whist she gets to bottom of issue. If you go down P. I route at least you would know so reduce anxiety.

As others have suggested, it could well be gambling. Addictive gamblers are experts at hiding their problem. If they share a laptop/pc could she not have a quick look at his browsing history? That might well throw up some answers. Of course you must talk this through with your daughter at a suitable time and help her see that his lack of disclosure is not helping her, or you financially!

We had a similar situation sixteen years ago with our daughter's partner (no children though). She was very worried and upset by her partner's attitude to money ie she earned it and he spent it. He wasn't working. We went up to London to help them with mending their central heating and talk about their problems. Short version, he was outraged, daughter then defended partner and the outcome has been that we have been banned from their home since then. Daughter visits us a couple of times a year but in spite of both my cancer and my husband's they won't allow us in their house. I think what I'm saying is be very careful. I would never have believed this would have happened in what was a happy family.

I don't want this to be about me. Just to say we never knew what my ex son in law spent his very good wage on. He was into fitness and spent a lot on these muscle build and often like a child changed hobbies. This did no equate to him not having any money. My daughter took out loans for him because he had bad credit.
I suppose you are trying to avoid this. Your money may dry up one day and he will leave. (Possibly). He may not earn that much if self employed.
He lied about his previous girlfriend, which we believed his lies how she got him in debt.
He now lives with his new girlfriend. In her property. He only gives my daughter what is by law for their child. I did get some warning signs when he said she could not have things ( she is quite frugal) when she was on maternity leave and went back on a part time wage.
We have had to bail our daughter out and help her get her own place with her daughter.
For richer or poorer? I should put him to the test. Tell daughter you are saving for your care home for your future when in fact you could be putting money away for your daughter and grandchildren, if he leaves. You cannot tell your daughter these things but make up some reason that you are not paying for things now for them. Even put the money away on pretence of a uni fund. He couldn't object to that. Sorry I have made it a bit about me. You may save her future heartbreak.

Mmmm I can imagine being in your daughters position...but I would become private detective long before I turned to parents...it’s back to her I’m afraid ..she’s got to be strong, it is not a time to endlessly protect her from life’s problems. Tell her you will be there to listen to her but tell her to find out. Then you can sort it.
At the end of the day people always reach for the easiest route, not the right route. This goes for her husband, your daughter, your husband and ...not you you are being brave. Time for you all the grasp the nettle

Someone who accepts so much financial aid certainly is hiding something.
We have a relative who has not worked for years but does not accept money from us except as birthday or Christmas gifts.
Addicts are very good at hiding their addictions and you would never find evidence on the computer if they were gambling, browsing history would always be deleted. Perhaps a wiped history each time would be more indicative of something to hide.
My theory is that he is supporting a child from a previous relationship and possibly the mother too.

It is quite possible to be self employed, work long hours and be struggling for money. I used to do quite a bit of insolvency work and it is very common. The question is whether the business is ever going to be fully viable or whether he is struggling for nothing. With men in particular, pride often causes people to carry on when they should really give up, even sometimes declare bankruptcy (which unfortunately people see as failure rather than a solution).
Self employment is often feast and famine.
There may be something else going on and she probably needs to be a bit of a detective to find this out but the automatic assumption shouldn't be that there must be money going somewhere. Unfortunately nowadays, the DWP try to force people into self employment and it is difficult to get out of once started. Commitments will have been taken on and he will not be able to immediately go onto benefits. Employers often don't like to take on people who have previously been self employed so finding another job won't be that easy.
Does she know anything about business? If he has staff, maybe she could offer to work part time to reduce the wages bill and as a way to find out what is really going on with the business.
She definitely needs to ensure that the mortgage and essentials are paid and that is more important than paying for holiday.
I'm interested in what kind of business he runs and how long he has had it. If it is still relatively new (I would say up to 3 years) then it might be worth sticking with it. When I had my business I could only take holidays around bank holidays when I could tack a day or if lucky a couple of days on and get a week somewhere cheap in the UK.
There are times to bail people out, it certainly has happened in my family for both myself and my sister, but I would never have asked for help with a holiday.
I think that you need to be a little firm with your daughter as well and say 'I do sympathise but there is also the problem of the money owed to us so things do need to be dealt with differently' and make it clear that more practical things have to be done. It sounds a bit as if he is treated as a child. He really doesn't have the luxury of running his own business if he has children to support and it is not raising enough. When things went quiet for my business during a recession, I took on temp work and kept my business going on the side which was difficult but it meant that I didn't have to give up. I didn't have a family to worry about though. He has never had to do that as you are there instead.

My feeling is that he's got some sort of "secret lifr" - another family, or maybe some addiction - gambling? I do feel your family needs to have a meeting and discuss what's gone wrong. You must not offer financial support and your DD needs to stand up to him. First essential is an income and expenditure spreadsheet. Then she should insist that they will pay for their own things - clothes, hobbies etc -, but he give her a housekeeping money allowance, out of which she will pay all bills. Then half of anything left over each month is put into a family pot which goes towards holidays, rainy day money etc and the balance is shared as "his and her" money, which they can do whatever they want, no questions asked. He may not be willing to come clean with her if he has something to hide, but she will then have to decide whether she is willing to put up with the situation. Above all, she must a) make sure that the housekeeping account and her own money is in bank accounts in her name only and b) that she ensures that her name is not associated with his on credit ratings. If he is just being the typical man, who feels he needs to be the breadwinner but can't cope, he may feel more comfortable that she is willing to take the responsibility out of his hands. And maybe his business isn't as profitable as he makes out. Good luck.

Possibly gambling on line if he’s working from home. Your daughter wouldn’t be aware of it.

I agree with those who say this must be a very shallow relationship. But my DD was in this position with her ex and it isn’t always black and white.
I would definitely discontinue funding holidays and any other non-essentials.
As Jennymollie says though, tread carefully when you talk to DD but you really must talk to her - good advice on here about how to go about that.

I'm convinced that Belinda's daughter must have at least a vague suspicion about what her partner is up to, or at the least an uneasy feeling.
I think if it was bought up, she may well open up a bit.

I agree with everything @coconut said.

Thank you all for the 'food for thought.' This man is from a poor background and I think he feels we have a bottomless pit of money. Daughter doesn't ask for anything from us but knowing her situation my husband keeps offering. He can see how stressed she is and that she is working as much as possible to support them. I feel I want to confront the man
to find out what is going on and that as he accepts money from us to keep afloat we have a right to ask him. Maybe he had thousands to pay back after university, who knows. They don't seem to live at all extravagantly.
I'm not very good at listening to my daughter's woes without expressing an opinion. I can't just keep my mouth shut and sympathise and she doesn't need to be reminded of how irresponsible he is - she's well aware.
I'll post again if I ever get to the bottom of it. Thanks again.

I'd like to add that they have never, ever asked for holidays.
Up to a point it gives us pleasure to be able to give our grandchildren what our children had. I agree that a roof over their heads and food is the most important thing.