Should we interfere?

JimmyRFU why don't you just say NO to your son, he can only live off you if you allow it!

Thank you Farmor15. I hope it turns out to be as simple as that in our case.

I would suspect he has a gambling problem. We know of someone who has gone through thousands of other people's money. Outwardly charming, utterly ruthless and a totally convincing liar, he's strung his parents and friends along for years and they have done the worst thing possible - loaned him money to delay the day of reckoning. He created companies, registered his mother as company secretary (she had no idea), quoted their address and destroyed their credit rating.
While you provide holidays and financial back up, the situation will continue. It needs to come to a head and your daughter needs a wake up call.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and curiosity but as soon as I heard he was an architect it started to make sense. Some architects are more like artists than other professions and don ‘t seem to realize they’re running a business.
I know one, married, but fortunately without children. He would spend ages chatting to clients but didn’t actually do much business and was always broke. He would borrow money from other family members, but his wife managed her own money, and sometimes went on holidays without him. I think she knew him well and refused to let him squander her money! He was also very charming, but just not a businessman.

If you withdraw your help he might borrow against your daughter’s house, if he hasn’t already. Forging a signature of someone you live with has been done many times. A PI is the best way gorward in my view. (Nowadays it is as much to do with on line searching as following physically). If it shows that he is genuine it will at least put your mind at rest.

If he runs a business it presumably has a name - he should receive post addressed to it. Once you have a name it might be possible to do a company search and find out more about it, unless it is a very informal thing, or possibly illegal. I agree with the suggestion of a private detective. You cannot fight an unknown enemy. It could all be above board - buying and selling, accountancy, or whatever, but obviously it is not paid well enough to sustain the lifestyle he would like. Or he could have an addiction, the possibilities are endless. You (or your daughter) need some facts.

Is he a gambling his money away?
That sounds a possibility.

Stop subsidising them.

Hi, what a huge really d dilemma for you all. If he is a drug user, gambler, etc. You will not know about it , he will be incredibly devious so please don’t think that this cannot be happening. Please stop giving them money- I know this will be difficult as you will be concerned for your daughter but you may need to help her financially if or when the reasons for their lack of money from nelly comes out so you could tell yourself that you’re saving money for this eventuality. Do they have huge credit card debts? Is he actually earning any money? Good luck

Belinda49 I empathise greatly.
My dd is with a 'man' (you'd all be appalled by the word I really want to use) that thinks it is ok to use his money to fund his drug habit and pay rent on a secret flat he's not living in, whilst living with her and contributing zilch but expecting to be fed etc ?. Sadly her wages don't spread that far..... muggins here has been supplying food and money for months. Now he's lost his job for not going I have plainly told dd there will be no more handouts. If dd (pregnant) and dgd are hungry they can eat with me. I REFUSE to enable him to behave like that any more!! Leaving my dd hungry ffs!!!

I agree, get a P.I.
Do not think for one minute you can quiz him about his finances. Your dd can, you or your dh would be overstepping the mark.

As a self employed architect, draughtsman, or engineer the usual practice is that no plans or other documents are released to a client until all accounts are paid in full. It's as simple as that. It does sound as though he is just not managing his business properly and may be very embarrassed or it's all just too easy with the constant bailouts as he doesn't have to face realities.

You say your son in law is a lovely dad and there are two little children in this story whose relationship with their father is also important. Unless there is something really awful happening such as an addiction, gambling, on line porn, secret families etc I think your husband needs to review the role he is playing (with the best of intentions) but it is also a controlling role, encouraging dependency and possibly undermining your daughters partners role in his own family.

Lots of food for thought on this thread but the "Bank of Mum and Dad" as it is called here in Oz needs to close or only operate in emergencies. Step back so they can step up.

Although I can see that he may not be good at getting payment for jobs done I wonder why he said he would let your daughter do the chasing and then changed his mind, plenty of wives help with a small company. Don't offer anymore financial help at least until you are sure what is going on.

A person can be registered with a professional organisation but not work in that profession. Where people are working very long hours it is sometimes because they have more than one job.

Belinda49 has asked for advice and received it here. She has also asked for solutions.

The finances and mortgage of her DD are not her responsibility.

Solution: stop subsidising them and see what happens.

Belinda49 - in answer to your question "When can we say to him that enough is enough?", the answer is clear: NOW

If you stopped subsidising the family, he would be under more pressure to stop living in cloud-cuckoo land and start making sure he was earning enough to make a fair contribution to the family's finances.

My daughter has offered to take care of invoicing and debt collecting which he initially agreed to but then changed his mind. I have often thought that working in isolation would be very lonely and have suggested joining a firm but he's not interested. He's always seemed quite busy but maybe that's because he doesn't charge enough! I spoke to an architect who worked for us and he said his wife had to be like a Rottweiller and knock on doors, otherwise clients wouldn't pay. Maybe he needs to take an assertiveness course.

Our SiL is dyslexic and ADHD and is useless with finances & management of himself or business. His symptoms mean no employer would take him on, or not for long. But he is very good at what he can do and, with our help, does well with his own business. Our DD acts as his business manager with DH’s help and we are all co-directors of the company. If he did not have our help or accept our right to know about finances etc, he would never earn anything and would never bill anyone but would still probably be giving his time to clients! He certainly couldn’t deal with bookings for his challenging clients, with dysfunctional Govt funding and Quality Assurance bodies. The Govt often tell people to be self-employed at the same time as making it increasingly difficult to be a sole or small trader. So I can quite understand how someone can be self-employed, work all hours and have no money, even if they are not involved in a ‘vice’. I cannot understand the secrecy from a partner and anyone else financially supporting them. Our involvement helped our sil from being exploited by a scheming, now ex, business partner.

Presumably whatever his self-employed business concern is, it isn't successful for whatever reason. Seems to me some people just won't acknowledge when the time has come to throw in the towel and change tack, preferring to throw good money (yours) after bad. Couldn't that be it?

Could your daughter do a bit of payment chasing for him? Or find someone else who could. Or yes, consider looking for a post with a company that would give him a regular income.
He might just be a bit overwhelmed by finding he suddenly has this family dependent on him. And he is quite isolated working all day on his own.

If he is a poor financial manager he should give up self employment and go and work for someone else.

I am sorry I have little sympathy for this man. He has a partner and 2 children to whom he has responsibilities and he is happy to live of his 'in laws'. Does he have no self-respect?

Neither could her husband, presumably. Unless a mystery is uncovered, and it really is that he is useless with finances, then he needs to made to stand on his own two feet.

He is a self-employed architect. I know that he's registered with the RIBA. I've seen his work and he seems busy enough. I think he just isn't a business man and can't manage to nag clients to pay their bills. I don't think he's extravagant. He and my D did go over his finances. Luckily she only has a small mortgage which she is managing to pay without his help or ours. Once the children are old enough we will have them for holidays but the youngest is not 2 yet. I think it's the nursery fees that she finds the biggest drain on her finances but she can't work without child care.

I immediately thought that!

We have not heard from the OP for a while, but rereading her posts I get a feeling of co-dependency building here.

Her DH doesn't want to enquire and is prepared to fund his DD and DGC to the extent of paying for holidays that, presumably include the partner.

They cannot have it both ways. Either they continue as they are until they are bankrupt or they call a stop, risk the flack hitting the fan and demand to know what he does, how he does it, how much he is earning and where it goes.

Personally, I find it difficult to sympathise with those who will suffer death by a thousand little cuts administered slowly over many years of misery against gritting your teeth having one major crisis and getting it over with.

Monica

That's the first thing I thought of - gambling.

I hope he doesn’t have a gambling addiction. Surely, your Daughter should be asking him to account for his spending. I would never pay for my Daughters family holiday, unless I was treating them to a once in a lifetime treat.

Its very hurtful but I sometimes think our kids see us as a permanent bank. One of mine once said to me that he sees no reason to support himself whilst me and his father have an income. I am so tempted some times to let his mates know he lives off pensioners but they would probably cheer him on. What is wrong with the generations coming now?