Should we interfere?

Oh I do hope you can sort something out, but a word of warning. A friend's DD was married to a man she thought was working hard and not earning much. When he was taken ill she discovered the full extent of his debts and how he had been using her money to keep himself afloat. They eventually split up, but she still found herself paying off some of his debts. Perhaps you should stop giving them money and start a bank account saving money for her and the children just in case. If everything goes well you could still give them the money as a gift and if anything goes wrong she will have something to fall back on.

This situation certainly needs investigating, as you cannot continue draining your finances into their pockets.My son has always worked extremely hard but always in low paid jobs, he never complains , has no debts, and lives frugally . Luckily he has no wife or kids that he needs to support ....he always accepted the odd £20 or £30 from me when I knew he was struggling although he never asked for it. I told him I didn’t expect it back as it was a gift. I never needed to do the same for his older sister who is married with two kids. I justified my monetary gifts to him with the fact that I would buy my grandkids clothes and books sometimes and am a free babysitter! My daughter agreed with my analysis. He is still in low paid work and never takes a day off even when ill...he cannot afford to buy a flat so pays a terrible rent...I hate it because I can’t help him with a large dollop of money ...but it’s not possible. When he reached thirty years old he stopped taking even small monetary gifts from us , saying “ my life is my responsibility and I will stand or fall by my own efforts” I cannot tell gransnetters how proud I am to have such a son. HE may not consider himself a success in life but I think he’s the ‘bees knees’. Don’t support this deplorable son-in-law anymore. Time to let them ‘sink or swim’

She could say to him something like "I'm going to start paying back mum and dad for their past contributions, so from next month, there's going to be a standing order to them for £500 a month. We should be able to manage that and your income, shouldn't we?". A shrug of his shoulder would indicate a good move. A blazing row would cast some light on where the money is going to.

As I said before put money away. My daughter was married for 7 years and she is happy away from him
My Daughter still does not know what he spent his money on. They never went out never had a holiday.
My mind has gone through other women. Gambling , it is still a mystery to me. Even the dark web...I believe that can run away with money that goes to Eastern Europe. You don't want to go there in your mind. I heard of someone who used that and all his good wage was spent.
I hope it's simple , and is just embarrassment regarding a failing business. Just remember she will take his side. you don't want to lose her and family but as I said in previous post, don't fund them. Just put money away. Being self employed in this climate is tough so it may be that simple. In hindsight I would not go down the detective route, imagine how you would feel if daughter put one on your hubby.

I'd like to add that they have never, ever asked for holidays.
Up to a point it gives us pleasure to be able to give our grandchildren what our children had. I agree that a roof over their heads and food is the most important thing.

Thank you all for the 'food for thought.' This man is from a poor background and I think he feels we have a bottomless pit of money. Daughter doesn't ask for anything from us but knowing her situation my husband keeps offering. He can see how stressed she is and that she is working as much as possible to support them. I feel I want to confront the man
to find out what is going on and that as he accepts money from us to keep afloat we have a right to ask him. Maybe he had thousands to pay back after university, who knows. They don't seem to live at all extravagantly.
I'm not very good at listening to my daughter's woes without expressing an opinion. I can't just keep my mouth shut and sympathise and she doesn't need to be reminded of how irresponsible he is - she's well aware.
I'll post again if I ever get to the bottom of it. Thanks again.

I agree with everything @coconut said.

I'm convinced that Belinda's daughter must have at least a vague suspicion about what her partner is up to, or at the least an uneasy feeling.
I think if it was bought up, she may well open up a bit.

I agree with those who say this must be a very shallow relationship. But my DD was in this position with her ex and it isn’t always black and white.
I would definitely discontinue funding holidays and any other non-essentials.
As Jennymollie says though, tread carefully when you talk to DD but you really must talk to her - good advice on here about how to go about that.

Possibly gambling on line if he’s working from home. Your daughter wouldn’t be aware of it.

My feeling is that he's got some sort of "secret lifr" - another family, or maybe some addiction - gambling? I do feel your family needs to have a meeting and discuss what's gone wrong. You must not offer financial support and your DD needs to stand up to him. First essential is an income and expenditure spreadsheet. Then she should insist that they will pay for their own things - clothes, hobbies etc -, but he give her a housekeeping money allowance, out of which she will pay all bills. Then half of anything left over each month is put into a family pot which goes towards holidays, rainy day money etc and the balance is shared as "his and her" money, which they can do whatever they want, no questions asked. He may not be willing to come clean with her if he has something to hide, but she will then have to decide whether she is willing to put up with the situation. Above all, she must a) make sure that the housekeeping account and her own money is in bank accounts in her name only and b) that she ensures that her name is not associated with his on credit ratings. If he is just being the typical man, who feels he needs to be the breadwinner but can't cope, he may feel more comfortable that she is willing to take the responsibility out of his hands. And maybe his business isn't as profitable as he makes out. Good luck.

It is quite possible to be self employed, work long hours and be struggling for money. I used to do quite a bit of insolvency work and it is very common. The question is whether the business is ever going to be fully viable or whether he is struggling for nothing. With men in particular, pride often causes people to carry on when they should really give up, even sometimes declare bankruptcy (which unfortunately people see as failure rather than a solution).
Self employment is often feast and famine.
There may be something else going on and she probably needs to be a bit of a detective to find this out but the automatic assumption shouldn't be that there must be money going somewhere. Unfortunately nowadays, the DWP try to force people into self employment and it is difficult to get out of once started. Commitments will have been taken on and he will not be able to immediately go onto benefits. Employers often don't like to take on people who have previously been self employed so finding another job won't be that easy.
Does she know anything about business? If he has staff, maybe she could offer to work part time to reduce the wages bill and as a way to find out what is really going on with the business.
She definitely needs to ensure that the mortgage and essentials are paid and that is more important than paying for holiday.
I'm interested in what kind of business he runs and how long he has had it. If it is still relatively new (I would say up to 3 years) then it might be worth sticking with it. When I had my business I could only take holidays around bank holidays when I could tack a day or if lucky a couple of days on and get a week somewhere cheap in the UK.
There are times to bail people out, it certainly has happened in my family for both myself and my sister, but I would never have asked for help with a holiday.
I think that you need to be a little firm with your daughter as well and say 'I do sympathise but there is also the problem of the money owed to us so things do need to be dealt with differently' and make it clear that more practical things have to be done. It sounds a bit as if he is treated as a child. He really doesn't have the luxury of running his own business if he has children to support and it is not raising enough. When things went quiet for my business during a recession, I took on temp work and kept my business going on the side which was difficult but it meant that I didn't have to give up. I didn't have a family to worry about though. He has never had to do that as you are there instead.

Someone who accepts so much financial aid certainly is hiding something.
We have a relative who has not worked for years but does not accept money from us except as birthday or Christmas gifts.
Addicts are very good at hiding their addictions and you would never find evidence on the computer if they were gambling, browsing history would always be deleted. Perhaps a wiped history each time would be more indicative of something to hide.
My theory is that he is supporting a child from a previous relationship and possibly the mother too.

Mmmm I can imagine being in your daughters position...but I would become private detective long before I turned to parents...it’s back to her I’m afraid ..she’s got to be strong, it is not a time to endlessly protect her from life’s problems. Tell her you will be there to listen to her but tell her to find out. Then you can sort it.
At the end of the day people always reach for the easiest route, not the right route. This goes for her husband, your daughter, your husband and ...not you you are being brave. Time for you all the grasp the nettle

I don't want this to be about me. Just to say we never knew what my ex son in law spent his very good wage on. He was into fitness and spent a lot on these muscle build and often like a child changed hobbies. This did no equate to him not having any money. My daughter took out loans for him because he had bad credit.
I suppose you are trying to avoid this. Your money may dry up one day and he will leave. (Possibly). He may not earn that much if self employed.
He lied about his previous girlfriend, which we believed his lies how she got him in debt.
He now lives with his new girlfriend. In her property. He only gives my daughter what is by law for their child. I did get some warning signs when he said she could not have things ( she is quite frugal) when she was on maternity leave and went back on a part time wage.
We have had to bail our daughter out and help her get her own place with her daughter.
For richer or poorer? I should put him to the test. Tell daughter you are saving for your care home for your future when in fact you could be putting money away for your daughter and grandchildren, if he leaves. You cannot tell your daughter these things but make up some reason that you are not paying for things now for them. Even put the money away on pretence of a uni fund. He couldn't object to that. Sorry I have made it a bit about me. You may save her future heartbreak.

We had a similar situation sixteen years ago with our daughter's partner (no children though). She was very worried and upset by her partner's attitude to money ie she earned it and he spent it. He wasn't working. We went up to London to help them with mending their central heating and talk about their problems. Short version, he was outraged, daughter then defended partner and the outcome has been that we have been banned from their home since then. Daughter visits us a couple of times a year but in spite of both my cancer and my husband's they won't allow us in their house. I think what I'm saying is be very careful. I would never have believed this would have happened in what was a happy family.

As others have suggested, it could well be gambling. Addictive gamblers are experts at hiding their problem. If they share a laptop/pc could she not have a quick look at his browsing history? That might well throw up some answers. Of course you must talk this through with your daughter at a suitable time and help her see that his lack of disclosure is not helping her, or you financially!

There could be any number of reasons already suggested such as he has lost his job and not told dd, gambling, historic debt, or even another family although less likely if he is always in house. You need to take advise from nannarose and tell dd you are having a spending review as your funds are dwindling. She what she says. Is she prepared to have frank discussion with partner to try to find out what he earns/job he has. It sounds like a very shallow relationship if she knows so little about him. If she gets nowhere then I personally would hire private investigator but yell one as see what s/he can find out. I would also talk to dh telling him you love dd and dgc too but throwing money at them without attempting to solve issue is not in her best interest. I would continue to pay for some dgc activities but stop all non essential payments and tell dad she needs to act to protect her home and dc future but you will be available for emotional support and limited financial support whist she gets to bottom of issue. If you go down P. I route at least you would know so reduce anxiety.

You are too nice and naive for your own good, and you are enabling this awful situation to continue unchallenged. He is clearly laughing all the way to wherever ?? Nobody knows what he is up to, and your daughter is clearly unhappy. If you are well off, surely you want your wealth for your daughter and grandchildren not wasted on this man with no morals or conscience, who just takes everything you blindly offer. Its not interfering when you are being dragged into this scenario with constant requests for money, this entitles you to start asking some very blunt questions as something is very wrong. I know you have done this to help your daughter, but in the long run the truth will help her more. Be angry that he is not supporting or helping your daughter as a husband should, and calmly use this anger to confront the situation.

Stop enabling his behaviour and then your daughter will have to sort her own problems out. You can't express concerns and carry on subbing their lifestyle.

Your DD has to confront and tackle the problems within their relationship, not you or anybody else.

All you are doing at present is making things worse and you have to ask yourself why you are doing that? Colluding with another person's downfall is wrong.

Tell your DD there will be no more money and allow her to sort her own problems.

Why on earth are you paying for holidays?!!!! I would only ever help out in a dire emergency, and holidays don't come under that heading!!!

I must admit I cannot understand this. Are you to fund their lifestyle forever, because that's what your doing. They don't need holidays anyway, I went eight years without one as lots of people do. It isn't helping them. If they get into debt and go bankrupt, that is their decision and only them will they face up to things. How long before your own home is threatened.

He could be gambling you don’t have to leave the house to do that I too don’t understand how they could be together 5 years and no one seems to know what work he does from home he’s not even going out of the house but you don’t know his business Maybe there isn’t a business at all and he sits on his computer all day playing games and losing money
A private detective isn’t going to help if he doesn’t leave the house
Why on earth are you paying for their holidays if you want take the grandkids away for a holiday with you and your husband but you are enablers keeping his lifestyle going
Wake up and smell the coffee

I thought that too, MOnica. He's lost his job and doesn't want to admit it.

If this woman and her partner have been together for 5 years and have 2 children why on earth has she not asked him exactly how he earns his money and what is happening to it.

What kind of a relationship can she possibly have with this man, where such a long time into a relationship, candour about the basics of life are entirely missing?

In a situation like this I think you, your DH (and your DD) should assume that whatever he is doing is either dishonourable or dishonest until he explains what his business is, what his income is, and what it is being spent and provides proper (doumentary?) evidence to prove it. Asking to see his tax return would be a good start.

Is it possible that he has lost his job and is too ashamed to admit it and is, to use your expression, SEEMING to work long hours, and his only income is JSA?

Whatever the cause, I do not understand why you are paying for holidays and flights. Your DGC will not suffer because they do not jet off to Majorca or the Seychelles every summer. If you must help, limit it to basics: mortgage, possibly Council Tax and things for the children.

But at the root of the problem is your DD not being prepared to find out from her partner, what he does, how much it pays and where his money goes