Support for all who are living with estrangement (2)

Iam64

Where I have a problem is with people saying that it's completely acceptable to:
-show up unannounced
-try to find out their AC's address when it has not been given to them
-try to get messages to an EAC through a third party

I have heard all of these things on GN. I don't think it's helpful for members to say these things are acceptable, or for this place to become an echo chamber or a place to bash DILs.

The voice of well balanced, non judgemental reason; thank you Iam64.

I don't often post on this thread but your latest contribution has me puzzled agnurse. You identify what you say are common themes you have heard from EAC. I don't doubt you have heard those themes. Professionals involved in working with children and families will have heard 'those themes' regularly, along with their opposite extreme. The skill is in understanding that you're hearing one side of what will be a complex situation in which there are no 'winners' . Your posts suggest you take a dim view of parents who have been, in your opinions, solely responsible for the estrangement.
Life really is rather less black and white. Also apportioning blame rarely helps any individual who is stuck in a desperate situation to make positive changes. We wish it would but it just doesn't.

I do have compassion. Where I have a problem is with people presuming to know the minds of their AC.

I think some of this might stem from mismatched expectations. Back in the day, yes, people spent more time with extended family. BUT. Mums generally didn't work. Children had fewer after-school activities. Evenings were family time. Few families divorced. There WAS more time available for extended family.

Today, many families require both parents working to make ends meet. Children are involved in more activities. Many marriages end in divorce. Let's say you want to see your GC once a month. If the parents are divorced, and each set of grandparents gets the child one weekend a month, each parent gets only one weekend a month with their own child. Or, there could be differences on parenting.

I don't think most DILs feel threatened by their MILs. At least, I don't, my SIL doesn't, and I don't think my sister does. I think some of it comes from mismatched expectations and if the expectations are not met, it's perceived that the children are being used as pawns. Some DILs don't want to send their children around if their MIL has been rude to them because they are concerned that MIL might talk smack about them to their children, or at the very least, it's rewarding MIL with exactly what she wants - to see the GC without that pesky DIL getting in the way. This can reduce the DIL to feeling as if she's nothing more than an incubator for MIL's grandbaby. Sometimes, too, there's perceived to be a problem because the family has a "you handle yours, I'll handle mine" policy. Not all wives want to become the "social secretary". They expect their husband to handle his family. Then the son doesn't contact his parents, but it's perceived to be the DIL's fault when in fact he's just not good at staying in contact.

I am NOT saying that any of you have done this. I'm simply pointing out that this is a common theme I have heard from EAC. Do you see why a DIL might not want her children around someone who treats her that way?

When you read through some of these sad posts it is clear that some " have children with emotional difficulties". Some, like me have child. who has just left them behind in their new lives, whatever you do you can't make someone want tou if they don't care. It is not anything I ever considered, I loved my mom and took it for granted that it was unconditional.I also find it upsetting that so many dil's, find their mil a threat. I have known a lot of nice people whilst not alienating mil from grandchildren are effectively out of their husbands families lives. The husband goes off on his own, to visit mom, sometimes with gc, to visit , wives stay behind to cook the dinner, do the garden. etc. As children get older contact gets less and mil is on her own. They never think by example the message they are giving to their own children that this is how you behave. You can't win, they hold all the cards. It is the worst feeling to know you really don't matter to someone you love. On your own it is a lonely place to be, made worst by so many happy loving families especially your friends, who cannot understand why. Why should they? We don't.
Agnurse, I don't read your posts,monlybthose you upset, f up are a nurse where is your compassion?

Googoogool, welcome and my sympathies to you. This is a horrible situation which none of us thought we would ever be in. Have courage, keep hope, take care of yourself, and believe that all will be well in the end.

One of DD1's closest friends has been in touch with DD3 to say that they ie her close friendship group of 4 school friends, have not seen her for a year either. I suppose this shows that it is not just a problem with me/her immediate family, but it is also worrying.

When I did speak to her on Father's Day, she said that she had lost lots of weight to the extent where she sounded actually thin, which is also a worry. She has a history of some MH problems. I just want to be with her and give her a cuddle.

Both I and DH suggested meeting up, but she was very non committal. It's so hard. I know she has to live her own life, but you can't help being protective of your DC, however old they are.

Some time ago ,Smileless, you wrote :

"Putting your wife and child first agnurse doesn't mean that a husband should condone and enable unreasonable behviour from his wife, or a wife should do so from her husband."

I agree with you Smileless. What people should do and what they sometimes can and do are not the same behaviours.

What Googoogool has to deal with is what someone can do and does. We all wish to help Googoogool.

Nobody should underestimate the effect these estrangements can have. Just recently I have had really bad insomnia and have been seeing a hypnotherapist. I told her that every day I feel like I am braced for something bad to happen. We talked things through and I realised this all stemmed from the day when DIL, completely out of the blue, told us she wasn`t going to see us anymore. That was 8 years ago and since then I have had a number of health issues and I strongly suspect that most of them have been stress related.
This thread was a life-line to me when things seemed really bleak. I`m pleased to see that my old `friends` such as Smileless are still posting - but wish they didn`t have to.

AlexaI was quoting agnurse when she referred to her own "overwhelming experience"; apologies for the confusion.

It's wonderful that you at last can have a relationship with your GC eddie but as you say, nothing can make up for the 8 years that have been lost.

I often used to post how much respect I had for your son for not allowing his wife to come between him and his parents. A very difficult balancing act so it's little wonder that he eventually had to leave, for his sake and the sake of his children.

I hope he's happy and has found the peace that he so rightly deserves.

As far as our ES's wife is concerned she doesn't give a damn crazy. She wanted our son, she got him. She wanted children, they got them and she wanted rid of us, me in particular and she got that too. TBH I believe if our ES had any real love for us he'd have told us that for the sake of his marriage and children he could no longer have contact with us. He would have spared us the pain of the constant reiteration of her lies and of his own. That at least, as far as we are aware has stopped.

Friends of his who we also knew, after a couple of years got tired of hearing about it. They couldn't understand why he refused to have anything to do with us and why they both kept going on about it when they'd ultimately got what they wanted. We were out.

You speak for us all Dolcellate when you say about only wanting to love your GC and wanting the best for them. We're not into playing games either which is why we walked away and took the decision after 4 years to move out of the immediate area.

Your D's 'phone call to her father on Father's day was indeed progress. "The pain is indescribable unless you have been there"; so true which is why this thread is so valuable to us all.

We don't have to describe the indescribable to one another because we all share this horrible experience, so we don't even need to try.

for you all.

I saw an email from my DD's boyfriend to her (sent to her sister by mistake, who showed it to me) which read

'I know you and your mum love each other, but can you imagine our sons and daughters pawns in her game?'

I don't have any GC yet, but who thinks like this? If I were fortunate enough to have any GC, I would only love them and want what was best for them. I wouldn't interfere. I am really not wanting to play 'games'.

I love my DD so much but am backing off at the moment to give her space. She rang on Father's Day, which was progress, but we still don't know where she lives. Still, it's better than last year, when she went NC for 6 months. The pain is indescribable unless you have been there.

Eddiecat, Those of us who have similar experiences really understand the enormity of this situation. In a way it's unbelievable that gp's are treated in such a way when DS is put in a position where he has no other option. I am delighted to see you are now getting access and wish you so much happiness with your gc's.

Yes - we are braced for trouble ahead!

Incidentally, when DS told his solicitor that DIL wouldn`t let us see the grandchildren she told him that would definitely be categorised as "unreasonable behaviour" and grounds for divorce

Eddiecat, there's a lovely young man who lives in our culdesac. His partner left him and took the baby. He had to go to court, in order to get access to his baby. Now, he sees the baby every Sunday for a few hours. His parents come to his house to see their grandchild. It's heartbreaking ....I remember when the baby was born, every time I saw the gps, that's all they would talk about is their little boy.
I saw the young man yesterday and said he has to go back to Court, because his ex is playing up again, because he has a new gf....she goes into the house unannounced, because she still owns half and therefore has a key, and abuses his new girlfriend...took picture of his new gf who had a glass of wine in her hand....so sad

I believe our DIL couldn`t see further than what she wanted. And DS felt he had no option but to go along with her because she threatened to stop him seeing the children if he didn`t. In the end, for the sake of his sanity and because the arguments were affecting the children, he knew that he had to get out. He is still anxious that she will stop him having access to the children after the divorce. We know what he is entitled to but I think lots of mothers find ways around that!

Glad you're back in your gc's lives....do d.i.ls realise the damage they are causing and do our son's realise it as well?

I haven`t posted for a while but pop in occasionally and have been interested in the recent exchanges. Once again, it looks like people are insisting that DILs know best and are cutting off the in-laws out of the best interests of the children.
We were in effect cut out of our grandchildren`s life for nearly 8years - DIL claimed we (especially I) didn`t like her so she wasn`t going to see us anymore - and this extended to not letting us see the children, and she expected DS to choose her and not us. I believe she simply didn`t want him or the children having any relationships she couldn`t control.
DS stuck this out for the sake of the children until last year when he could live with her controlling ways no longer and they are now getting divorced - and we are having contact with the children.
Amazingly, DIL has now admitted that she was wrong and that we hadn`t done anything to deserve being cut off. Knowing that does not make up for all of the things we have missed out on over the years but we just have to try to put that behind us.

PS Just for the record, I don't recall writing that Agnurse has overwhelming experience.

Smileless, I do like your posts except that I don't follow all the initial letters that stand for various relatives.[smile[

She doesn't have to respect G Alexa she doesn't have to see her or have any contact with her if that's her choice and she doesn't have to attempt to come between her H and his M and deprive their D of her GM.

I agree that sympathy and reality are compatible. I sympathetically responded to G but didn't shy away from the reality that her d.i.l. is using her GC and her son is enabling her to do so.

I too hope that her d.i.l. realises her error but the reality is she may not, and there's less chance that she will while her husband, G's son condones her behaviour. We've been waiting for more that 5 years for our ES's wife to realise her error, and are still waiting.

There was little IMO in agnurse's responses to G that was based on the reality of G's situation. There's no point in citing her "overwhelming experience" that in the majority of cases EAC don't use their own children as pawns, when this is clearly what G's d.i.l. is doing.

As an estranged parent, being on the receiving end of being cut out and the reasons for it is my frame of reference, as is yours. What our ES said to me that night unquestionably explains why we've been cut out; "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble".

Googoogool wrote:

"No matter who is right or wrong what has happened to people actually showing some respect for their chosen one's families. "

Sociologists call this sort of respect ascribed status. I agree with Smileless that there is less ascribed status accorded to elders especially where family relationships are concerned. Once upon a time a mother in law and grandmother was worthy in her own right.

It's apparent that Googoogool is also a good, attentive , and kind grandmother. Life is such that the daughter in law will come to realise her error. I hope she does so sooner rather than later.

It's impossible to say whether or not G's son should educate his wife in proper respect towards his mother, and the good grandmother of their child. Some wives can wield a lot of power over the man.

I had hoped that agnurse my have read my posts from 24th June, before I asked for them to be removed. Clearly, she has not not. If she had, she might learnt why her posts are found to be so offensive to those of us involved in estranged relationships and she might have done something about the attitude of her posts. For someone who appears to have all the answers as to why relationships founder; she doesn't seem to be able to pick up any clues as to why she constantly and repeatedly puts people's backs up on here and Mumsnet. hide of a rhinoceros

Smileless, Agnurse was telling the facts as they seem to be from the information that Googoogool gave. I myself needed reality as well as sympathy when I was estranged. I needed reality more than I needed sympathy. Knowing reality makes life safer.
Sympathy and reality are mutually compatible.

Sorry ladies, I know that was a long post but there's one more thing I'd like to add.

We were skyping DS in Aus. on Sunday. He's a teacher and was bemoaning the lack of discipline and respect in his charges. We told him about the lovely day we'd spent with our God son and his brothers and how shocked we were at the lack of discipline and respect we witnessed in children of such a young age.

I call it 'liberal parenting' and told him that if that's the way our GC are being raised it's just as well that I never gave the childcare I was asked by them to provide. I'd have struggled, it would have caused problems with our ES and his wife I don't think I'd have found the overall experience enjoyable.

He said he understood that we don't like to talk about our ES and GC as it's too painful but he wanted us to know that our ES is raising his children in the way they were raised. With love, firmness and discipline; his words.

So perhaps you can answer this question for me agnurse. Why has our son cut us out of his life and denied us any contact whatsoever with our GC while simultaneously bringing up his children in the same way he was brought up?

I have been reading through this site which I am pleased to say is a wonderful resource in so many different departments. Particularly this thread at this time.
AGNURSE anything Smileless2012 said was in a supportive manner, surely the point of this thread! Her interpretation of the situation feels to me very accurate and I know how I feel better than you. Never at any time since my son chose his wife have I ever expected him to prioritise or equalise me to her. I agree they and their family should be his first priority. My issue really is that in my mind, and I can only speak for myself, a mountain has been made of a molehill. No matter who is right or wrong what has happened to people actually showing some respect for their chosen one's families. Is it really necessary to have to interject whenever you don't agree with someone at the expense of the OP.