Not another one!

A significant proportion of men neither pay the maintenance they are meant to pay, or not with any regularity and others get out of paying any at all.
Very true M0nica*, especially if they are self-employed or working in a family business.

It's amazing what some men will do to avoid contributing to the upbringing of their children.

Of course some women are selfish and self centred, the same thing can be said of men. This competitive my DiL is worse than your DiL strain running through this thread is rather unpleasant and says little to advantage of those taking part

There are also unpleasant self centred families and I can only assume that Diana was unfortunate enough to be born or to marry into such a family.

Many women have to make sure that when a marriage breaks up they get as much of the family assets as possible, because they usually have the primary cost and expense of bringing up the children, which by definition makes it very difficult for them to enter fully into the employment market to earn the enhanced income needed by one parent to do this. A significant proportion of men neither pay the maintenance they are meant to pay, or not with any regularity and others get out of paying any at all.

It is only women with well paid careers which they can continue in and still manage the responsibilities of being a single parent who can afford to be magnanimous in the division of marital assets.

If a woman (or man) is the resident parent then het character doesn't come into it Trisher. She should be supported by the non resident parent. It really doesn't matter if she is an "angel" or not.

Being a resident parent is not a profitable business model.

No notanan2 there are such women in real life. They use their children as weapons and a means of extracting money from their ex. We had one such marry into our family and I have heard of others.. The concept that all women are angels and never do wrong is false. Some women can behave very badly.

Contrary to your general view I know plenty of divorced women who benefit considerably from divorce

On TV/movies/novels/magazines.

But those of us who are able to make real connections with other humans hear their experiences and see how hard financially, practically and emotionally a split is on everyone.

If you are a young woman whatever else you do get that ring on your finger as soon as you can, choose well and don't turn a good man away.
If you are a young man, find yourself a female companion if that's what you want, treat her well but don't marry her.

Those two options sum up the scenario you described regarding your very pretty daughter and the man she eventually managed to get to marry her Diana.

I am rather - is that what you would recommend to young men and women today or is that what you assume posters mean?

I obviously live in a different world to the majority on this forum.
I think that is very obvious

Wow just Wow.
What on earth does "far more feminist than I expected " mean?
Does it mean far less surrendered than I expected?

For those of you that doubt, the thread had been genuine throughoutand as have the situations detailed. I obviously live in a different world to the majority on this forum.
Contrary to your general view I know plenty of divorced women who benefit considerably from divorce and also quite a few that have tried but have gone with a lot less that they expected, occasionally nothing.
Internalized misogyny, weak, low self esteem and lots of other unpleasant comments have been applied, I'm sorry that your own experiences are so poor that you have to sink that low. Those characteristics would be typical of a woman that only wants direct payment from the men that are attracted to her, with no thought of long term commitment. Not a woman who loves one man and wants to stay with him.

So you have convinced me of two different opinions -:
If you are a young woman whatever else you do get that ring on your finger as soon as you can, choose well and don't turn a good man away.
If you are a young man, find yourself a female companion if that's what you want, treat her well but don't marry her.

Your views have been far more feminist than I expected.

I think in marriage there needs to be a balance of independence and interdependence.

I agree that women should, ideally, have the option of being a SAHM. My mum was and it was wonderful for us.

The thing is, though, that even as a woman you need to be prepared to lead the family if it should become necessary. There's always the potential that your husband could die suddenly, or become disabled and unable to work. Or you marry Mr. Great and he ends up being Mr. Not-So-Great and he runs off and leaves you with children. You need to be able to make a life for your children in that situation.

Our mum had a BA in French and a MA in political science. She was fully bilingual. Had something happened to our dad, it is likely that she could have pursued a career in the civil service. (In Canada some civil service positions require that you be fluent in both English and French as they are both official languages.) She never had to do that, but it was handy to have that as a backup. She also encouraged my sister and I to pursue higher education. My sister has a certificate in early childhood education and could run her own dayhome should the need arise. I have a Master's of Nursing and work as a nursing instructor. Likely if we have more children I will return to work after mat leave and Hubby will just work casual (as-needed) as a night security guard. (I get 3 months' paid holiday a year so there would be plenty of time available for him to work, plus I don't work weekends.)

Probably you're better as you are then crazyH

Internalised misogyny is a hell of a thing.

I don't think so Jalima. Perhaps I could go back to Court and ask them to increase the alimony in line with inflation. But that's a risk. When I had my "settlement", he was still in work .....now that he is retired, the Court might reduce the alimony. I never worked, so no private pension.
When I downsized, I had some capital and that tides me over.

crazyH, I'm financially worse off because of divorce, don't know anyone who isn't. Happier though.

are you entitled to some of his pension crazyH?

Monica- I am a divorced woman, with no pension, except the state pension. I got the house and a measly alimony payment which hasn't increased for the past 18 years.
I sold the house, and moved into a smaller one.
My ex was a high earning GP, but a serial philanderer. I have a limited income now, but am happier in myself, except for daughterinlaw problems which is another story ?

I find it surprising that a mother of three daughters would have so little regard for the female sex
And to actually say that one daughter is the prettiest!

I have yet to meet a woman who hasn't found life a lot more difficult after a marriage break-up

M0nica - not to mention the problem with pensions when they reach that age.

I also don't know anyone who has left their marriage/life long relationship without endless attempts to make it work

Spot on Iam64; 12 years in my/our case. No regrets now though!

Diana, I'm beginning to wonder if you're comments are genuine.
MOnica is spot on, no woman with children is ever better off after divorce, quite the opposite. Financially, women always suffer and emotionally it's a nightmare. women may feel a sigh of relief to be out of a relationship in which they were desperately unhappy, undermined and sometimes emotionally or physically abused. They will also feel lonely, isolated, desperate, worry how on earth they're going to manage their children's response to the separation. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Whoops, I don't have a worst enemy but I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
I also don't know anyone who has left their marriage/life long relationship without endless attempts to make it work.

Because some women are gold diggers does not mean many or all women are and there are just as many men on the make as well. But gold diggers go for men with MONEY, footballers, pop stars, wealthy businessmen, not ordinary men in ordinary jobs.

If they do go for ordinary men in ordinary jobs and split from them they are usually substantially worse off when a marriage breaks up, especially if they have children. They rarely get maintenance for themselves, only their children and that ends when the child finishes their education. They have all the hassle of being single mother, balancing work, children and childcare. They may be able to occupy the house, but rarely get given it and, again, may have to sell it and split the proceeds when the children start work.

I have yet to meet a woman who hasn't found life a lot more difficult after a marriage break-up, but I do not mix in any society that includes footballers, pop stars or wealthy businessmen.

wash his skiddies for the rest of her life!

Thanks for the mental image notanan!

I dont see how you won?

Its fun being wooed and flattered and wined and dined but that does NOT mean that the other woman was keen to wash his skiddies for the rest of her life!

Staying together after an affair can be the right choice, but its no victory

My self esteem was always high...... no shit Sherlock

Dolcelatte, I married for love and never wanted to beï independant, many women want independance, a career, a family and marriage. Although probably the majority of women think that way it puts a lot of pressure on the relationship and we have a divorce rate of 40%, and a significant number never do find a partner.
My self esteem was always high, after the affair it increased because I had won, I had kept my man, if l had left then it would have meant a very poor life, my parents were not in a position to help.
My daughters had the same choice at 18 and chose not to go to University but get work experience and ended up as 2 Chartered Accountants and a Midwife. They settled into relationships had children they had no ideas about independance, 2 work part time the other has 4 young children and is busy enough with them.
In my eyes that is a good result, the relationships are all good, with each other, with their husbands, with myself and with their respective in laws. I know that sounds like some kind of utopia but that's how it is, were they lucky or did they make the right choices as teenagers.

I am not bitter, I have commented on situations where others have in my opinion made the wrong decision or deliberately sought to exploit others

There are, of course, people who prey on others for material gain, both men and women, particularly where the elderly and vulnerable are concerned. And maybe some people marry for money or position or to gain a passport. Who knows?

However, romantic that I am, I do believe that most people marry for love, but often it just doesn't work out, and then the separation can become bitter as the parties scrap over children and possessions.

Nobody knows what goes on in someone else's marriage, even those who are close to you, so it doesn't do to speculate.

Diana, if what you say is true, and if this whole thread is not a 'wind up', you made your marriage work. It may not be the sort of marriage I would want or, I suspect, one that many posters on here would want, but you say that it is what you wanted.

So why are you so bitter? Did you never really forgive your husband for the affair? Did he destroy your self-esteem, to the extent where you felt you had to 'win' him back instead of the other way round? Did you ever have a career of your own, which would have given you more confidence and independence? Do you secretly regret some of your life choices?

Obviously, none of us can know, but I do hope that your daughters have higher self esteem and contentment than you appear to have found. I find it surprising that a mother of three daughters would have so little regard for the female sex. You should be their role model and inspiration, as well as the person they love and can turn to for support. Do you actually have much of a relationship with them at all, beyond the superficial?

If he had decided he didn't want me I would sit tight in the house and take what I could, keeping the children as a priority
Exactly the actions for which you condemn other women!