Love, whatever that is?

Tillybelle, I wasn't so much responding to the OP's daughter's situation so much as responding to her request to, Please give me your wise words. It was just a post about marriage in general rather than any particular marriage.

I think a Relate or couples counselling is straightforward enough to start with!

PECS. That is why they need to find out.

I made it clear that I did not have enough information but was giving some pointers in case these might be of use.

In the circumstances, none of us know what exactly is going on.

cakehunter. Sorry! I believe I may be doing what Mumsnet might accuse me of as "drip-feeding"!

I just tried to see if there was a way your daughter could get some insight into her relationship and what she may reasonably expect in terms of support and being valued by her husband. In other words what is her right to expect from a relationship within marriage? I typed into the search bar: "What signs show you are in a bad relationship?" (I thought that her not feeling loved was an indication of something bad). I found so many lists from which you could see and decide if they help her to recognise what is a normal thing to expect in a relationship or rather what is not acceptable. For example: Psychology Today has 51 (!) signs of an unhealthy relationship:
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/in-practice/201502/51-signs-unhealthy-relationship

Not feeling loved in your marriage is a very big red-flag of something very wrong. It may be that the husband (in this case) has a problem in showing love or in relating, but I'm sure if, for example he was Autistic or on the Spectrum, you would have said so. I used to ask my husband in the early days of my marriage to tell me he loved me. He'd just say "I'm here aren't I?" in a quite aggressive voice. Once he told me to go out on my own. It was Saturday night, dark and cold. I did not drive then. I had to walk about a mile into town down a spooky hill. I went to the bar in a hotel and had coffee. The barman asked me why I was so miserable. I did not know that my husband's treatment was cruel, abnormal, and that I had a right not to be sent out of what was my own home like that.

I will repeat what I wrote earlier, because your daughter may be getting more and more unhappy and losing sight of what a normal life should be like:
This girl is in a one-sided unloving relationship.
Such a thing is desperately miserable. It freezes away all your joy and will to live, takes away the person you were, emptying you, from the centre of your being, until you are just going through the motions of life, doing what others expect, trying to keep the children ok.

Tillybelle I understand all that you are saying in your posts but it could be that the relationship is just going through the doldrums and is very sortable.

I have been to very difficult places in my marriage but we weathered the dreadful storm and came out the other side stronger. It can happen. However if only one person perceives there is something amiss and both do not want to work to make changes then it won't improve enough for both to be happy.

In practical terms OP can listen to and agree to support DD whatever her choice/s, help her to access counselling.

We don't know enough to assume it is a toxic relationship.

grannyactivist.
I am pleased you have such a good marriage.
The point though, in the matter the OP has asked us to help her with, is that your excellent method for keeping your marriage healthy lies in your statement:
We give time, energy and effort to our relationship

You have overlooked that painfully lonely and soul-destroying misery described in the OP's description of her daughter's marriage when she asks, "How many compromises should we make if we love someone but they don't make us feel loved in return?

This girl is in a one-sided relationship.
Such a thing is desperately miserable. It freezes away all your joy and will to live, takes away the person you were, emptying you, from the centre of your being, gradually seeping outwards until you are just going through the motions of life, doing what others expect, trying to keep the children ok.

cakehunter I am so sorry. She is so lucky to have you. I could not talk to my mother about my husband's cruelty, which was very subtle and mental more than physical and kept me in utter misery.

I have mentioned this before, but do not want to get it out of perspective, obviously not knowing the circumstances, but the internet can help. I learned that I was not being treated humanely simply when I read something on the internet for example!
Just now, I simply typed in "How can you find out if a relationship is toxic?" and the first result was:
time.com/5274206/toxic-relationship-signs-help/
and it said:
"The first (sign), and simplest, is persistent unhappiness, Glass says. If a relationship stops bringing joy, and instead consistently makes you feel sad, angry, anxious or “resigned, like you’ve sold out,” it may be toxic, Glass says. You may also find yourself envious of happy couples."
I thought this sounded a bit like your daughter but of course I do not know.

I noticed how scared I was when I loaded the dishwasher when my husband was away and put something where he didn't like it to go. I leaned in to move it and realised I would be the one to empty this load! He wouldn't know! I literally felt my shoulders go down as if several inches and my tension go out of me. I suddenly realised I spent all my life carrying this tension of fear, terror of upsetting him and had become so used to it that I did not know I had it!

There are other good pieces of advice about how you should ask people to treat you, on You Tube, despite people's fear of the "mad" stuff! Many of the contributors are professionals, mostly from America where talking about feelings seems more open.
I tried putting "how to decide when a marriage should end" in the YT ?line and there seem to be some which you (not your daughter until you screen them I think) might be able to see and decide if they give any guidelines. You'll know within seconds, well minutes, if that person's approach is not for you! I, for example, avoid Jordan Peterson like the plague - but he's a well-known crazy man. "Clever" maybe, but people in his subject area, which is Psychology, do not necessarily value him - he was fired for example from one prestigious university.
I like Stephanie Lyn Coaching. She has a talk about setting your Boundaries and says some of us do not even know what our boundaries are because we do not value ourselves enough to ask/show people how we expect them to treat us. She has so many videos as she makes one a week, with a link for people to send email messages as it goes on. There is one which might clarify some issues called "What is Emotional Abuse?...." and explains about whether a person feels validated or respected. In case it should be relevant try:
"What makes the COVERT Narcissist So Dangerous!..." and/or the one by Dr Craig Malkin "What's the single greatest danger of covert narcissism?" - I mention these Covert Narc. ones because it is so difficult to describe or even realise it is happening. Dr Malkin says somewhere (poss in another talk) that partners get so used to being abused they do not recognise it is abuse.

If your daughter's husband has eroded her self-esteem and is treating her in other ways that make her very unhappy, look at signs for "covert narcissism". These people are the pillars of the community on the outside but indoors they make the life of their spouse an imprisoned torture through, mostly, mental torture which is very hard for her to explain to others. Try getting her to simply talk. To talk about her day at home. What she did from waking up, let her ramble on and encourage the details.

Ideally your daughter might well benefit from counselling if she can find someone suitable, for her on her own at least at this stage. It sounds as if she is very unhappy and possibly depressed. Talking to someone made me realise that I was putting up with unreasonable behaviour. But finding a good Counsellor is not easy and can take time.

I truly hope your daughter is not going through serious problems such as those I have mentioned. However, please take her unhappiness seriously. Try not to say "We just put up with things" in case this closes her down when she might be trying to address something bigger or something she has trouble putting into words or even understanding. Try and deduce whether the couple talk things over and how that goes - is it a fair and even give and take? But again do not ask too directly, or be in any way looking as if you are setting up a "this is what you should do" scenario. Remember, when talking about our unhappiness we often play it down especially when talking to a person whom we love.

I do think a Counsellor with a professional viewpoint, who is outside the situation would be of great help. If you don't find the right match with a Counsellor first time, do try again. It is simply a matter that different people suit different people! Meanwhile, be a good listener, a "sounding board" and learn as best you can what is actually happening. Help her learn what is right and wrong to expect in a healthy relationship and stand by her as she figures out what to do. She must be feeling very distressed. I am glad she has you. Much love

I know I interfere in AC's lives without even meaning to. In this case I would really try hard to listen, have a few questions/suggestions prepared and try NOT to give an opinion, unless really pushed. Above all don't criticise her OH as that can come back to bite you. Support is what is needed above all. Ideas above about open-ended questions or suggesting a counsellor are very useful IMO. Maybe she'll also find it useful to think if she was advising a friend what would she say? It helps with objectivity and your DD may find this clarifies things a bit for her. I agree compromise is one thing but leaving things to go on for too long is also upsetting for all concerned.

A difficult question. If there is any abuse then she needs to get out if she can.
If it is a feeling of everything being mundane..that is fixable!
If it is a realisation of having different values/ goals/ purpose it stll might be fixable.
If there is another person it can still be fixable.

What makes a relationship fixable is that both of those involved want it to be fixed!

Love the car analogies!

Cakehunter, I know you want to help dd. What parent wouldn't? We don't stop caring about them in that way just because they're adults.

But I agree with those who say "don't advise." Or perhaps better, SunnySusie's idea of asking open-ended questions that will help her figure it all out for herself. And, of course, listen, listen, listen. It may also be a good idea to say something like, "I have faith that you'll figure this out." That might boost her confidence and direct her towards doing just that.

And yes, you might also recommend counseling if she feels she needs someone to help her sort it out.

My concern is that if you give her specific advice , she takes it, and she's not happy with how it works out, she may end up blaming you. I wouldn't take that risk.

I'm not sure what that comment about planning for the future means? Are you talking financially? IMO, she needs to seek professional advice for that, too - a financial planner or someone like that. Once again, too risky, I think, if you're involved in the planning and the results aren't to dd's liking.

Counselling is the best option really.

Probably the best thing to do is to ask lots of open ended questions when you meet with your DD. That will allow her to get everything out into the open. Reserve judgement and try to get her to explain and elaborate, maybe explore 'what if' scenarios with her. You can then get her to see the pluses and minuses of her situation. Most likely it will give her plenty of food for thought and support to enable her in the end to make her own decision. I dont know if its my family alone, but if I make a judgement, or dish out any advice it invariably is rejected, or my offspring do the exact opposite. Even worse if things all go pear shaped I am blamed! I think its important that you support her to make up her own mind. She will have to live with the outcome.

A good counsellor will not have a hidden agenda and will not tell her what to do. S/he will, however,help her see things more clearly - and support and enable her to make her own decision. RELATE might be a good start, or she could look up local people who are B.A.C. (British Association of Counselling) qualified on the Net.

Both my ACs have done the latter, and they say it helped a lot and gave them confidence at a time this was much needed.

(That doesn't mean I wasn't there for them, too, when they wanted to talk things through).

I look at Mumsnet sometimes, where a lot of people seek relationship advice.
A lot of good advice is given, imo. However, it's not uncommon for someone to start off wanting to know how to make their relationship work, only to have the discussion help them to realise that their partner is not making any effort at all and may actually be abusing them in some way.
It could be an idea for your DD to have a look at the relationships section of MN.

I think there's no harm in you giving your thoughts, if your DD wants them. How depressing it could be for her to look for help from you and to have you step back saying "It's up to you, dear."
(As long as you support her final decision, of course.)

Frankly, as we have no idea why your daughter feels her relationship is broken, we can't advise her or you as to whether she should stay and try to fix it, or go.

If her husband/ partner is violent, drinks too much or uses drugs and refuses to attempt to change, or has run the family into debt because he is totally irresponsible about money or gambles, she would IMO do well to leave.

These problems can be solved, but only if the partner who has them wants to solve them, and it is a long hard road to travel.

I feel the days are long past when any woman should stay in a problematic relationship "for the sake of her child", as the atmosphere in the home is unlikely to be good for said child.

All you can really do is support and help your daughter whatever she decides, I hope things improve, whatever she chooses to do.

I doubt that everyone deserves to be loved. Some are simply unloveable.

I think the saddest thing about your post is the inference that your daughter does not feel loved. Everyone deserves to be loved. As Kitty says if she feels a break up is inevitable then she should go now but whatever you do say cake you must be impartial because if you push her one way or the other it may come back to bite you later on if your DD is not happy and she may blame you.
I wish her well.

My marriage has been lopsided and unequal since the first week...but I was desperate to get away from an intolerable family home situation.I wish I had found the guts to leave this marriage 20 years ago when my last child finished with school . But I didn’t. I stayed out of ‘duty’ ...and that cheap and insignificant 7/6d marriage certificate! I bewail my-missed oportunities. Tell your daughter to go from this marriage and give her all the support you can muster. I had no support and I had to stay put and I’m screaming inside!

Very wise words M0nica

My first marriage was based on lust, my second friendship, shared interests and respect for each other and we have grown into a loving relationship. We are a bit like Day6, we go out most days just for a coffee and a chance to chat and make plans. I would say to your daughter how does she view the next 20 years with him, with dread, indifference or excitement and don't be afraid to end the relationship if necessary.

I was in a very difficult marriage for 17 years with two young girls - we had no money worries but that didn’t bring any comfort - my husband left much to my delight and it was me and the 2 girls - mo st was tight - I worked part time but it was 7 days a week but we were the happiest we had ever been

I would never stay in a relationship because of money or for the children as these alone don’t bring any happiness

Does she know for sure whether her partner is satisfied with their relationship? If he is just biding his time till he moves on then any effort from her is a waste of time.
Also agree that children can sense their parents unhappiness so staying together for their sake alone is often a mistake.

Cake hunter I feel your pain for your daughter. I remember being beside myself about my daughters relationship, trying to make things right, sleepless nights worrying. I confided in a professional lady what to do and she replied You Mind Your Own Business. I thought it was a bit harsh but without my advice she left the relationship and is now happily married with 2 children. Our children will allway's be our little girls and boys but we can't allway's fix things,we have to sit back as painfull as it seems and let them learn their own mistakes.

Don't advise. Tell her you will give her 100 per cent support whatever she decides. Let her know, though, that you don't want her to be unhappy, and it's a long life.

I would be reluctant to advise a particular action in this situation. Only the DD can really decide what is best for her and her child. Certainly suggest counselling but advice from you could backfire. In the future, resentment could fester, blaming the advisor if the action does not work out. Be there to support but, be like a professional counsellor and ask her what she wants rather than tell her what you think she should do.
I hope it all works out for her,