only daughter distanced herself and tgecwholecfamily followed suit.

Pantglas

Thankyou for your kind comments, but I’m afraid they’re largely undeserved, I sometimes wonder what my poor dad would have made if it all

No, I hadn't guessed the GP's in your post were your parents Hithere. Where as I don't agree with GP's going against the parents wishes, which my m.i.l. would do, why the problem with your jaw when the GF, I assume you mean your F, said he wanted to be the father to his GC that he couldn't be to his D's?

A lot of GP's I'm sure have the same thoughts. They get to do fun things, and don't have to worry about the every day trials and traumas that parents do.

I think your entire post sums it up, and not just the second sentence. You refer to your own father as your niece's GF. You describe your sister as being then, and still being in the FOG. Perhaps your sister is more tolerant and understanding of your parents than you are.

"There is no way the GP were in charge of my daughter for even 1 second". The GP!! you are talking about your own parents.

As Pantglas has posted, the fruit incident for some would have been enough to go NC, whereas others would find a different course of action.

Would I have gone NC for that? No I'd have been very angry and made my feelings known whether it had been my parents or my in laws.

If your sister is as you say still in the FOG, in a relationship with your parents, why did the incident you referred too lead to you going NC? It didn't involve your child, it happened to your niece.

I think your second sentence sums it up Hithere. With some people, that incident would be enough to go NC, while others would find a different way.

My own father insisted on putting sugar in my daughter’s tea in spite of my wishes. I simply refused the offer of tea when we visited .....there’s usually a simple solution, even if it does become a battle of wills - the parent always holds the aces. A little distance or creative thinking can achieve so much without the nuclear option which I consider NC to be.

Smileless.

It did happen.
Whether you believe me or not, these are the events that lead to a TO or going NC.

The grandfather also said:
"With my grandchild, I am going to be the father I could not be with my daughters"
There is so much wrong in that statement that it took me a while to lock my jaw back in the proper position

As many of you have guessed. Those GP are my parents, the mother of the child is my sister and the gc is my niece.

If she had been my child, there is no way the GP were in charge of my daughter for even 1 second
Unfortunately, my sister was and still is in the FOG, rugsweeping everything my parents do.

I still regret to this day not intervening more strongly and removing the child from the kitchen. I should have protected her despite my parents blocking me at every move.

My sister rugswept the whole incident and laughed at it saying "you know how mom and dad are"

I'm frankly amazed that anyone stupid enough to give an 18 month old 5 pieces of fruit in a 45 minute period ever successfully managed to raise their own children.

TBH I'm even more amazed that an 18 month old could eat an entire banana, tangerine and orange and that with a history of not doing as the parents of the child requested they were left alone with her, even for an hour.

So to be frank, I'm amazed that you think your story believable. I suppose it could be but I'm not convinced.

Well said Smileless

Quite right too Sara children aren't pawns in a game between arguing adults, and nor should they be.

Well MovingOn I've seen posts here on GN from parents who are hurt that GP's don't want to be a part of their GC's lives.

"Why would a grandparent want a relationship with a grandchild when they can't even reconcile with the child's parents?" Why wouldn't they. We'd have loved to have had a relationship with our GC.

The fact that we have not reconciled with our ES is down to him, not us. He's not interested. The love that a parent has for their child and GC can't be turned off like a tap. Even though for some AC, and our ES is an example of this, their love can be.

How can GP's be role models to their GC when they're not even allowed to see them?

We don't insist on contact, stalk our ES and his family, we don't harass them and trespass on their property, even though we have a large sum of money invested in it.

Our ES wanted space; he got it. He then decided we were no longer a part of his and our GC's lives and were to stay away, so we did.

But oh no, that was wrong, that was awful it showed that we didn't really love him and never had.

If you really want every post you make to be one that puts all of the blame and responsibility on EP's and EGP's perhaps it would be more appropriate to start another one.

The majority of posters on the estrangement threads try to achieve a degree of balance. Not assuming that all estranging AC are to blame or that all EP's and GP's are innocent victims.

Real story. It did happen. I was there.

Grandparents with a past history of boundary stomps, ignoring no's and doing what they want, are left in charge of their 18 month old granddaughter for 1 hour.

The parents of the child told the grandparents very clearly:
"It is time for dinner, so she can only eat 1 piece of fruit.
Otherwise, she will not eat dinner and will get sick, diarrhea and upset stomach."

Reply from the grandparents:
"Sure, no problem, we understand"

Parents leave and GC asks for a banana. She eats it.
She asks for more. Grandparents give her a tangerine.
She asks for more. She is given an orange.
I intervene and tell them about what her parents' warning.
Grandparents laugh and they say:
"nothing will happen, we know better, we are the grandparents, the parents are over cautious"

A total of FIVE pieces of fruit were eaten in 45 min, while the grandparents are awwwwing and ooooowing how cute the GC is, eating it all.

Dinner time comes and the GC eats nothing.
Grandparents swear she only ate one piece of fruit.

Grandchild goes to bed.
She wakes up an hour later screaming bloody murder, huge case of diarrhea, the whole 9 yards.

First change of PJs and sheets.

For an hour, the GC is crying. Both parents with her, wondering what happened.

Second change of PJs and sheets. It is now 11 pm.

After 30 more minutes of crying, the mother asks the grandparents if she ate more than one piece of fruit.
The grandparents lie again and they say they do not know what happened, poor GC.

30 more minutes of GC crying - 2 hours of crying now and another change of PJs and sheets, parents are considering going to hospital.
I then tell them that she ate 5 pieces of fruit and there is nothing else wrong.

It is now midnight.

The father of the child is fuming. The mother is too busy taking care of screaming child.
Grandparents are mad at me because I rat them out. After all, they are grandparents and they want to spoil her GC.

It is 1 AM and finally, GC is sleeping. The parents have to wake up at 6 am to go to work.

Next morning, grandparents are complaining they are so tired, they could not sleep last night as the child could not stop crying.

To this day, GP still lie to the parents about that night.
Behind the parents' backs, GP remember the GC's smile eating the fruit and how much she enjoyed it.

GN, what are your thoughts?

Move on have you considered a career as a barrister. It's amazing how much time and effort you've put into your posts.. Clap clap. I think its gone past the point of support..

I’m very impressed with the way you’ve handled your situation Sara65. I think most grandparents would accept something similar if it was as graciously delivered and is a lesson for us all as parents. Good job.

MovingOn

Two of my children were adults, and quite capable of making their own decisions, the oldest still has a good relationship with her, which is fine by me, the youngest was ten at the time, and now nearly thirty, visits now and again with my husband and middle child, I would never have asked them to take sides

Movingon2018
10000% on your court

Exactly, Sara65, how can people hurt those they love by denying them contact with family?

Grandparents are supposed to be role models to their grandchildren. People of good moral conduct, that can instill great virtues into their grandchildren's lives AND that their grandchildren can also look up to and learn from.

So it simply doesn't make any sense for anyone to expose their child to an adult who would negatively influence their child's life, or suffer any form of abuse (emotional, mental verbal etc) from watching their grandmother feud with, and belittle their parents. It's also not in the child's best interest to be around people who dislike, disrespect or undermine their parents. Or people who are constantly at odds with their parents. Or anyone that won't listen to their parents for any reason (including being asked to leave them alone after going NC).

This is not about "grandma," and how bad or sad she feels over being denied contact with family. This is about the parents maintaining thier sanity (from going NC) so that they are able to take care of those innocent grandchildren who need them. (Outside of abuse, children NEED their parents, and their grandparents - although some may beg to differ since something's that should be obvious just aren't). Parents do what's best for their children and not what's beat for their grandparents. And maybe that's why a lot of grandparents choose to brand NC as child abuse, in an attempt to brand the parents unfit and abusive.

So when you ask how can people hurt those they love by denying them contact with family? the real question is why would anyone who loves their AC, continue to hurt them AND their family by insisting on unwanted contact, stalking and harassing them, and trespassing on the property?

This isn't about whose innocent (EAC vs estranged parents) and whose not. Again no one wakes up and decides to start their day by cutting off their great and loving parents. This mostly occurs after several unresolved issues, several attempts to fix the problem, continued retaliation from opposing party and evidence of no perceived change.

And asking questions with implications as to why we are here on this thread, and stating how we should start our own further beats the purpose. Wts the point of stating this? There's already an entire section for estrangement, and people (just like you are free to) should be free to comment anywhere without one or two parties trying to control the outcome of the conversation, by questioning other posters presence in the thread. That's another form of control and manipulation - factors that would exhaust anyone and lead to NC of it persists.

The blame is not automatically being out on the parent. The blame is automatically placed on any party that finds it too difficult to leave the departing party alone. And if it's the parent falls into these shoes, then yes it's their fault for again (since its not already obvious) no one should ever be harassed for ending any relationship. A lot of people claim the child's best interest, but I never see anyone advocating for children whose grandparents have conciouslsy opted not to be in their lives. Should AC also force these grandparents to be a part of these children's lives? For it would be in the child's best interest? Or does advocating for a child's best interest only come into play when the grandparent is hurting over being cut out? Which would then mean it's in the grandparents beast interest and not anyone else. Seems like some people want to put the children in the middle, for their own selfish agenda.
Its unresalistc to expose your child to something that you consider to be negative.

If one's own child doesn't even want anything to do with the said parent, how would it be in the grandchild's best interest to expose their beloved child to
whatever element their parents have, that their very own AC (whom they birthed and raised) doesn't even want to be associated with? Why would anyone expose their children to someone that they themselves don't want to be exposed to? And why would a grandparent want a relationship with a grandchild when they can't even reconcile with the child's parents? What message does this send to the children?

Moving on, I never said that or posted at the time you say, that quote was by Smileless. O9/07 at 19.06,. So please get your facts right before commenting .
I am sorry Smileless I am not getting at you one bit, but for someone to make sweeping judgements and accuse you of something, not true, I did read all comments back and found the paragraph she referred to.
You don't have to be personally involved to have empathy,
Yes there are poor mothers, but they wouldn't be on here if they didn't care, they don't need snide and inaccurate comments from someone who sees fit to judge a situation that causes a lot of pain. how can you get any justice in anything in life if you can't talk about things, that's how wars start.

That’s lovely smileless,

I'm very fond of my m.i.l. but when the boys were little she quite literally made my life hell. So much so that I didn't see her for 7 years.

They lived only 5 miles away and throughout that time
Mr. S. went to their house once a week (he worked with his dad) and the boys had regular visits.

He always took the boys over on Boxing day for tea which I did find hard.

It was our estrangement from our son that really cemented our relationship. Totally unexpectedly and not like her at all, she put her arms around me and cried for my pain and she still thanks me for the amount of time they got to spend with our boys. Far more than any of their other GC.

I agree smileless

I’m fairly certain, that had I taken my mother in law too seriously, and wanted her out of our lives, my husband would have very reluctantly gone along with it, I would have been making him very unhappy, but I’m quite sure he’d have taken my side.

This probably happens a lot I would think

For the most part I agree that as adults we do have a choice but if someone's in an abusive and controlling relationship, that choice isn't necessarily their's to make.

I do firmly believe that in a case where a relationship was absolutely fine until the introduction of a third party, their influence cannot be underestimated.

But she’s not my family. I’ve never CO anyone in my family but then again my family have never crossed the lines she has so I’ve thankfully never been put in that situation.

I agree that the partner can sway the decision. But as adults we have a choice. There is a lot that I would choose my husband over and that includes his happiness.

No Bibbity I haven't got along with everyone I've encountered in my life; who has? That said when it comes to a relationship with a family member, not getting along may be a reason to reduce contact or have none at all, but isn't a reason to prevent other family members from doing so; GC for example.

I would think that the ratio is 50/50 when it comes to the decision to go no contact. It's unlikely IMO that the opinion of a partner wouldn't have any impact on the decision though.

Of course I have! Some people are just poison. Regardless of their age etc. Some are abusive and aim to isolate their partner.

However. I think the ratio is more an individuals decision than the partners.

I wouldn’t say my feelings towards my MiL affect me at all. I haven’t seen or heard from her in over 2 years.
Have you gotten along with every acquaintance, colleague or person you’ve encountered?
She is nothing to me. She has no affect on my life and her absence isn’t noted by me at all.

It's a pity MovingOn that rather than see that some of the examples you give of unacceptable behaviour from estranged P's and GP's can also in some cases be attributed to EAC, you can only see all EAC as the innocent victims of abusive parents.

It isn't twisting, it's having a more balanced and realistic point of view. AC are just as capable of creating emotional turmoil as their P's.

Why is there this constant rhetoric from some posters, who have not themselves been estranged, that puts all of the blame and responsibility on the parents?

I was thinking the same thing Tedber that it might be beneficial to a couple of the posters on this thread, to start their own thread, one from the perspective of estranging AC and their partners.

"Very rarely do I see it actually being the spouses fault", does that mean that there have been occasions when you have Bibbity or is your perspective coloured by your hatred of your m.i.l.?

But this has to be an absolute last resort

It is not for anyone to decide what somebody else’s last resort is.

Very rarely do I see it actually being the spouses fault. People just don’t like to admit that their child doesn’t want a relationship.

My Husband has CO his mother. I’ve drilled into him that this has to be a decision that he can live with. That if he wants a relationship with her then he is free to do what he wants.
I hate her so I’ll never facilitate anything and I myself never want to see her. But she’s nothing to do with me.

Exactly, Sara65, how can people hurt those they love by denying them contact with family?

I agree with your last paragraph particularly Sara65 - you can be kind to someone even if you don’t like or get on with them.