Very difficult DIL

Holyhannah all communication is communication. It might not come in a form you like but the message is what is important. If someone takes the time and trouble to sit down and try in their own way to help, then that's what they are doing. Unless we want to just ostrasise anyone who has feelings and emotions or personal understanding. Which would obviously be silly because it's often the people who have understanding from being on the other side of the situation who can really help you find some clarity and see how your own behaviour could have impacted the situation.

Its not possible to always communicate ideas in a way that causes zero offence.

It is easy to say, I have decided to be so offended by your tone that I will just chuck your advice in the bin so I can pretend I didn't hear it and don't need to self reflect and work on myself.

It's not what is said but how it is said that makes the difference.

Giving a different point of view to a poster with sensitivity isn't validating. Validating is telling someone they've done nothing wrong when it's clear from what they've posted that that is not the case.

I agree Madgran, if you want to help someone by encouraging them to see a situation from not just their own perspective, making assumptions and/or not taking into consideration their feelings when replying is not going to be productive.

It isn't always easy to put our own experiences to one side, especially if those experiences have been particularly upsetting, but we need to be careful not to judge unfairly and project what we've been through and feel, onto others.

Holy Hannah in your situation with your Mum the style of your communication is entirely appropriate.

I was talking about how to give hard messages to posters on line whom one has never met and have no relationship with per se other than in GN. They come on upset, pouring out their perpective and yes, sometimes it is pretty obvious why their might be a problem, although it is also easy to make assumptions which obviously takes care to avoid.

I am NOT saying it is inappropriate to state clearly ones view. I am NOT saying that just agreeing etc is helpful. I am saying that there are ways to say it that might help someone to look differently at their situation, to consider other perspectives. If ones purpose is to help then that is presumably important. If ones purpose is different then presumably one wont bother to try and "open their ears" and help them to listen!

Madgran -- "It is perfectly possible to give hard messages without validating something and without being rude or unkind." I'm afraid I have never found this to be my reality. One person's 'rude and unkind' is called telling "the truth" to other people/Me. If someone is 'red flagging' I won't overlook that it's still enabling/validating and IS unhealthy and there is no way to say "the truth" in a way that won't 'hurt' the recipient...

For example, if my 'mom' were to ask Me the reason(s) why I am No Contact, the answer, regardless of how polite or gently worded? It's an attack to be denied and turned into more of HER being the 'victim'... The following is sorta how things seem to 'go' from my POV...

Dear 'mom':

You asked for the reason(s) we are estranged. The answer is, I don't like how you treat Me and I never did. The longer answer is YOU need to self-reflect on how YOU 'behave'..."

Her 'type' of reply -- "That's so vague... What do you mean???"

Me -- "You don't see that how You treat people, in particular ME, is problematic. You need to self-reflect and by 'self-reflect' I MEAN look at what you say/how you say 'things' to Me and then ask yourself how YOU would feel if I said/did those 'things' to You..."

'mom' -- "I still don't 'understand' what I have done wrong!!!"

This is about the time frustration starts to 'set in'...

Me/'child' that is soon to go No Contact (whether they came from a dysfunctional family or not) the reaction is the same -- "Really? You cannot think of one single thing that You have said or done that might have hurt Me? You can't think of a single 'thing' that You should apologize for? And again, YOU don't see 'that' as the dysfunction I am trying to illustrate?"

'mom' -- "Clearly you are irrational and your mental illness is tainting your view of Me... I was a good 'mom'. I always put my children first... You clearly don't know what YOU are talking about..."

Me -- "Yes. I am 'mentally ill' and it's nice you acknowledge 'that'... Did/have You ever asked yourself WHY I am 'mentally ill'? I know You did... And your answer was, "Because Hannah is broken/'wrong' and always has been..." which is a very convenient 'answer' for You..."

'mom' -- "How can YOU think/believe these terrible 'things' about ME!?!?"

Me -- "Because YOU have treated Me in terrible ways!"

So there's the sort of situation I was faced with... Repeatedly.

And often this 'situation' ends in the AC sending a list of 'grievances'/allegations/'proof' to the 'parents' of their past behavior and then We ALL know what the 'standard reaction' is... It's that evil 'letter' full of lies and their child not remembering the situation 'correctly'...

SOOO after all 'that' firsthand/life experience, I think/believe it's far easier to just state -- "You/OP/whoever are raising huge red-flags to ME and here is WHY..." What the person does with my experience/knowledge is up to them...

I agree and so true. Some here complain that the site is no longer friendly. And by "friendly" I translate 'that' into VALIDATING

I'm not sure I translate friendly into validating. Not always but I think quite often, the "friendly" comments link more to style of posting. It is perfectly possible to give hard messages without validating something and without being rude or unkind.

I do agree that the OP left very quickly when the first few posts did not validate/agree with her perspective. The speed of her departure does sadly suggest where at least some of the problem might lie for her.

MissA exactly. One persons expectation of "making welcome* or *making oneself at home" is another persons rudeness.

In the end it takes time and understanding of both parties to get to a point of comfortable compromise. That is, if both parties wish to do so. If one party is not really interested that can make it well nigh impossible which is where I think individuals have to think about what their priorities are

For the OP I would say it was to maintain time and contact with her son and grandchildren in any way that that is possible ..but that is ofcourse for her to decide.

I would never have dreamed of helping myself to anything of my mums without asking first.

I suppose I bought my daughter up pretty much the same way, and she in turn, her boys.

Just goes to show how different we all are.

My son and his partner stayed with us for 2 years before they decided to get a place of their own.From day one I expected her to treat this as her home ,I didn't expect her to ask permissionto get something from the fridge or when she could go to bed ..or even to let us know when she was going to bed.IF this young woman is to feel part of your family she must be treated as such..not just a guest who you see now and again and clearly dont like .She should have the freedom to act as she would in her own home .

For the record my sons GF gets on just fine with us ,she is very close to he r own family though so we dont see that much or her or our GD ...AND THATS FINE .We still get drop in visits from our son and his oldest daughter who lived with us for 10 years until the new baby arrived ...and decided new baby sister was better fun .

Holy Hannah, I don't always agree with you, but I do this time.

There's a lot of 'She should behave the way I want' on here.

No wonder she's pulling away. No one gets to control anyone else.

the parents of the adult children who love us as we are should at least happy about all the love going around and place priority on that, not having a picture perfect DIL/SIL.

I agree to some extent Starblaze and certainly allowances can be made and understanding shown. I dont though think that all parents are necessarily looking for "picture perfect" as you describe it. More trying to get their heads around the relationships etc not maybe being what they had pictured, the nuances of different behaviours, their own ideas of "rudeness"/unfriendliness as opposed to someone elses etc. That is not the fault of anyone really, and is hard for everyone in relationships isnt it especially when it is such an important relationship. It can take time for some to accept differences, and maybe also priorities and certainly some never do which is where huge problems understandably arise.

If no one ever said "I think you are being unreasonable" to anyone then we'd just be a society throwing a mass tantrum.

Everyone is different which is exactly why we need to compromise. Especially when different is just different, not awful/horrrible/rude etc

We live in a multicultured, constantly changing and evolving (usually for the better) society. If we can't give a person a little leeway for not having a good childhood and not really feeling comfortable on Skype or even face to face sometimes due to probably feeling shy and overwhelmed... Well there are other people who do love us as we are, and the parents of the adult children who love us as we are should at least happy about all the love going around and place priority on that, not having a picture perfect DIL/SIL.

Maybe?

I dunno.

Lucca -- "Not really a loss if they just expect everyone to say “oh yes you’re right” -- I agree and so true. Some here complain that the site is no longer friendly. And by "friendly" I translate 'that' into VALIDATING.

Because of my background I have my 'view' of the world which is considered "unfriendly" etc. to some because I refuse to, 'just take people at their word' like I (apparently) expect when I say I am a child abuse victim/survivor...

As a true victim/survivor of real Narcissistic abuse I not only never saw myself as a 'victim' because the victim was clearly my 'mom' but I also understood and still 'get'? No one believes Me. That's the message that is stamped onto a child-abuse victim's forehead... "NO ONE will 'believe' YOU over Me." So when people say/tell Me (paraphrased), "You expect/want people to believe You but you refuse to give 'others' the same consideration/courtesy." Me -- "Not when I see all kinds of red-flags in what you say/have said... Abusers twist and manipulate stories/'truths'... True victims bought and believe those truths. Enlightened/recovered abuse survivors are tired of listening to parental 'stories'..."

That is why certain actions/behaviors/words are such red-flags for Me. OP didn't receive 100% validation/SHE was "right" and walked off... WHICH if you think about 'it' might be the type of attitude/thinking/behavior that makes DiL creep away... And as others' have helpfully suggested/stated, to paraphrase -- "Count yourself lucky you have the contact you do. Some DiL's in the 'same situation' would happily cut You out."

Are you over bearing ???

Is the OP upset by DIL going for a nap/ read/ quiet time or by the fact she hasn’t announced it?
I would much rather a family member felt that they could have a bit of “ me time” than all of us sit about having “ polite “ conversation. When my granddaughter comes to visit we do baking, craft etc to give her parents a bit of a break & we love it too.
If it bothers you why not preempt it by suggesting an activity & making it clear that those who want to can participate & if they don’t they can do their own thing for a couple of hours?

8 pages so far...

rafichagran

Lucca The original poster is not I'll mannered, she/he let us know that they would not be returning due to some of the harsh responses. Another new poster probably lost to Gransnet, which is a shame.

Not really a loss if they just expect everyone to say “oh yes you’re right”

That's the one!
My mum used to tuck us into bed like that.

Love the picture Chewbacca

Like this MissA?

MissAdventure

If a guest followed me around all day, I'd not only suggest that they should go and nap, I'd follow them up and tuck them in,nice and tight.

Love it!

If a guest followed me around all day, I'd not only suggest that they should go and nap, I'd follow them up and tuck them in,nice and tight.

What a wonderful response!

Lucca The original poster is not I'll mannered, she/he let us know that they would not be returning due to some of the harsh responses. Another new poster probably lost to Gransnet, which is a shame.

I really don't get it tbh. If I invite someone to stay the weekend I really don't expect them to follow me around until bedtime. They are guests at my house, I treat them like guests not entertainment

I don't expect that either from guests, either but I'm not sure that is what is being expected in this case or suggested by other posters

Yet again someone Starts a thread doesn’t get 100% sympathy and disappears. I think that’s quite ill mannered actually!