Very difficult DIL

Holyhannah it's crazy making behaviour and when younger quite tempting to go crashing off the rails and just be who they say we are because what's the point in trying? I did it for a bit... Ended up in a bad way. Why? It's just not who I am.

Of course even as a married mother 20 odd years later with a finished education and a career (even if not a high flying, high paying one) I am not allowed to ever forget it and that is who I am told I am.

Because they cannot grow as people, or change or heal. Neither can we in their minds. Especially when they enjoy hurting us anyway.

All we can do is be very proud of each other instead

Me too Madgran. Very unpleasant to be on the receiving end of and witness being done to others.

You are so angry/hostile!" Me -- "No... I am quite calm." and then they'll push you to 'admit' that You are feeling the way they perceive/believe until You DO get angry.

I recognise that one Holy Hannah ...experienced it and observed others doing it to someone.

Starblaze -- "If people can't be understanding and not communicate with me in that way, or worse, ramp it up, then eventually I give up. what is the point in communicating with those who want to argue with me about what I mean, how I feel or dictate to me who I am as a person at all?"

It's beyond frustrating and when people (like my 'mom') think they know what I am thinking/feeling etc. they almost never get 'it' right. So once someone miss-perceives You/how you are feeling THAT is the mentality they are now running on as reality.

Like, "You are so angry/hostile!" Me -- "No... I am quite calm." and then they'll push you to 'admit' that You are feeling the way they perceive/believe until You DO get angry. It's a common deflection tactic and it's made to make YOU into the "bad guy" and avoid the real issue -- probably something crappy THEY DID.

Thankyou for replying Starblaze.

Someone being very angry and shouting near me, will instantly make me think I am at fault (for example).

Yes, I can empathise with that!

I don't read or use the word "misunderstand"/|"misunderstanding" as meaning "refuse to listen to explanations."

Isn't it interesting that what means one thing to one person means something different to someone else. No wonder communicating on forums is a minefield eh!!

No Madgran my triggers are mostly physical or in proximinity. Someone being very angry and shouting near me, will instantly make me think I am at fault (for example).

I will generally state what I do not like as it happens. If people can't be understanding and not communicate with me in that way, or worse, ramp it up, then eventually I give up. what is the point in communicating with those who want to argue with me about what I mean, how I feel or dictate to me who I am as a person at all?

If people lie about past communication or deliberately misunderstand (refuse to listen to explanations) RED FLAG

Its exhausting, upsetting and rather soul destroying so it's best for me to quit explaining myself, chat with those I want to chat to and move on.

Not everyone has to like me and I don't have to like them. That's a lesson I have learnt the hard way.

My mum has decided differences of opinion are the reason we are estranged, because the real reasons we are estranged have been dismissed (thrown in the bin).

That is frustrating for you Starblaze at the very least and certainly "convenient" for your mum.

This is a genuine question ...do you
find therefore that "misunderstanding" is a trigger for you, seen as a passive aggressive way of saying "difference of opinion" or a method of covering up what is truly meant? I know that I have certain words that can trigger certain responses in me because of past experiences...not always very helpfully!!

No need to answer if you prefer not to ofcourse.

My mum has decided differences of opinion are the reason we are estranged, because the real reasons we are estranged have been dismissed (thrown in the bin).

I get a lot of emails saying it's not OK for me to drop her because we have different opinions. It's literally not a problem for me.

I however, preferred not to talk about subjects like that with my mum and would explain that I just wanted to enjoy our time together. She preferred I should sit silent and listen to all her very important opinions.

My daughter once nearly got hit by a swing because I tried to hurry away from mum while she was telling me her very important opinion instead of showing any interest in her grand children on our less than once yearly day out together. She left nail marks in my arm trying to hold me next to her.

She literally shouted after me as I ran from the bench with zero awareness of why I would suddenly run off. Even after, no concern for her granddaughter or her role in jeopardising her safety.

I really, honestly, truly don't and never have minded different opinions on anything.

I just reserve the right, being of my own sound mind to have my own opinions or not have discussions about these things when I'm trying to spend quality time with my family.

biba70 -- I agree. Although politics are not the only subject that could lead to those feelings.

I have no issue with discussing religion so long as no one tells Me my religion is 'wrong' and isn't actively trying to recruit Me to their 'correct' religion.

If someone insists on doing that, what choice are you left with? You can tell the other person to STFU or you can walk away... Or you can just blindly agree with them at the cost of your own feelings.

Refusing to engage with someone is the least abusive thing a person can do to avoid inevitable conflict. Maybe that is the case with OP and maybe not...

Things have been very tense in last couple of years in many families due to massive differences of 'political' opinion. I have found myself walking away at times in order not to fall out because of this, and go for a walk or read in a quiet corner.

I know from discussions with others that they have done the same- and have often made excuses not to visit or have visits - to avoid a big fall out that would be hard to mend. Could your DIL perhaps be doing the same?

I recognise the "misunderstanding" but when it happens to me I assume it's because I'm not explaining myself clearly enough or because someone has missed an explanation rather than it is deliberate!

I shall now consider that as a possibility as well in terms of deliberately being misunderstood and posts deliberately being ignored.

Not sure why this thread that's about relationships with d's.i.l. appears to have morphed into a thread about parental estrangement, when the OP isn't estranged from her son.

There are other threads where this is discussed and it looks as if this one is at the risk of being derailed which is a shame.

It definitely did affect me, my ability to form relationships and my parenting Holyhannah and I constantly work to be better. I have great understanding children who know I screw up sometimes but know I am horrified when I do and will make it right always.

Its incredibly difficult still to deal with people who won't allow you a voice and try to shut you down with various excuses, accusing you of getting off topic or simply deliberately misunderstanding you. It's worth the effort though for those who can be helped and ultimately live a happier life with time

Starblaze -- I should add "it becomes clear that THAT is part of the dysfunction you ran from... And until You realize 'it', that YOU are a participant in the dysfunction..." is a key line.

The moment I realize I AM doing that now/repeating cycles? I stop. And then I practice what I preach/demonstrate what I say...

Starblaze -- I think what some can't grasp is that when I said, "There is NO WAY to politely and without offense say to someone, "You are a negative and toxic individual who no matter how much/what people do you, for it is not only never good enough you make people feel like crap for everything. Your company is not enjoyable and the only person who can change your behavior/attitude is YOU. Until then? Bye. Oh and an apology for your past abuse would be an awesome 'bonus'..."..." OBVIOUSLY, as most seem to agree, there's no 'good way' to say THAT... Child abuse victims are never going to be so blunt because most of Us are too traumatized and terrified of our abusers to dare 'talk-back'/state anything so truthfully/succinctly.

SO We try the 'gentle approach' which usually begins with, "I love you 'mom' but..." and as soon as WE say 'but' they shut down because they know it will end with THEY might have to accept a truth/fact/'reality' (even if it's in Our 'imaginations'/made up) that conflicts with their own...

Nobody starts with the blunt/harsh example I provided, however, when you repeat the same cycle of denial and "trying to be 'nice'..." which usually leads to WORSE consequences for the victim/You, it becomes clear that THAT is part of the dysfunction you ran from... And until You realize 'it', that YOU are a participant in the dysfunction (just by being born into it) You can't begin to heal AND stop your own crap aka real 'bad' behavior and NOT the projection from an abuser...

When you are taught ALL your behavior is 'wrong' how do you know/learn what is really You being bad and what your abuser perceives as your 'bad'? Which is EVERYTHING. A child doesn't know BUT an abuser expects their victim should and if their victim cannot? Well, it's their victims 'fault' for being weaker...

Our truth/reality IS We understand and believe EP's 100% when they say, "Well, I was abused as a child as well!" That's how the cycle works... Then the EP moves on to the dysfunctional thought of, "But it didn't affect ME and I got over 'it'!" Me -- "Well, if one or more of your children have estranged from you? I am guessing You are NOT as healthy as you think you are and your child(ren) would probably agree with Me. Which in the 'dysfunctional world' means I am automatically wrong as well."

There is NO WAY to politely and without offense say to someone, "You are a negative and toxic individual who no matter how much/what people do you, for it is not only never good enough you make people feel like crap for everything. Your company is not enjoyable and the only person who can change your behavior/attitude is YOU. Until then? Bye. Oh and an apology for your past abuse would be an awesome 'bonus'..."

Well no there isnt!

But that was not the context of the comment on posting/giving hard messages on threads as has already been explained! I wont bother to repeat my last comments, up thread. I aldo won't keep bothering to point out context ..it gets boring for me and everyone else!

Holyhannah everyone who is involved in the issue is a part of the issue lol

No one is perfect, for example: I am not estranged because of all the horrible situations with my mum. Even the worst, most painful issues, perhaps if she wasn't an abuser there could be a reason I could understand. There wasn't in my case but there may be in others... I am estranged from my mum because she lied about her mistakes, denied them or twisted it around to be my fault which nearly drove me to a full breakdown in the end.

No one in any relationship is perfect and most people don't expect perfect. Just for them to love us enough to be accountable and regret hurting us as we regret hurting those we are supposed to love.

Projecting perfection was my mums priority, so emotional punchbag me didn't stand a chance. Put all her negative on me so she could function otherwise with everyone else. Made herself a whole list of excuses starting from newborn me who cried too much and went from there. Good Times.

As I said, you and I have both learnt that no matter how we try to explain, we aren't heard by our estranged parents (before estrangement). That's just how it is.

Starblaze -- I agree. I have yet to meet an EP, my own included, that is any kind of receptive to any theme that includes, "You might be part of the issue."

If you high-light behaviors and attitudes that are problematic? You are being mean/cruel... If you explain that the parental behavior is the same that lead to you walking away? Our view is 'tainted' and an "agenda" and we just dislike all EP's: fact -- I don't dislike all EP's -- just the ones that are red-flag wavers who refuse to see themselves at least as part of their relationship issues...

"It is easy to say, I have decided to be so offended by your tone that I will just chuck your advice in the bin so I can pretend I didn't hear it and don't need to self reflect and work on myself."

There is NO WAY to politely and without offense say to someone, "You are a negative and toxic individual who no matter how much/what people do you, for it is not only never good enough you make people feel like crap for everything. Your company is not enjoyable and the only person who can change your behavior/attitude is YOU. Until then? Bye. Oh and an apology for your past abuse would be an awesome 'bonus'..."

As I tried to illustrate with my example, it's basically impossible to break through the 'barriers' of high-conflict individuals.

I still regard this as an unhelpful generalisation. Of course EAC who post on GN have had completely different experiences to the EP's who post.

EP's have had completely different experiences to EAC. We can only learn from and help one another if we respect those differences and accept what we are being told is the truthful retelling of what we've been subjected too.

Starblaze

Of course we know this more than most having parents who ignored the message no matter what form it came in.

This comment was meant for you Holyhannah forgot your name when I added it to the first

Of course we know this more than most having had parents who ignored the message no matter what form it came in.

I strongly disagree with this generalised statement. I can see how it applies from the perspective of an EAC but not from the perspective of an EP. It implies that EP's never listen to messages from their EAC, and negates the fact that some EP's are never given messages/reasons for their estrangement.

Unless we want to just ostracise anyone who has feelings and emotions or personal understanding well this applies to EP's with regard to EAC and EAC with regard to EP's.

As you've said Madgran threads continue even when the OP appears to have left.

Yes the poster has gone Daddima. However as posts often raise various issues that others are interested in or that are relevant to their own situation, threads sometimes continue regardless.

I sometimes wonder if anybody reads other people’s posts! Six or so pages after the poster said she’d not be posting again, and was obviously unhappy with the replies, people were still giving their opinions! The daughter in law was the visitor in this case, but somebody said no wonder she wanted to lie down, with three children and house guests!

* it's often the people who have understanding from being on the other side of the situation who can really help you find some clarity and see how your own behaviour could have impacted the situation.*

That is very true.

Its not possible to always communicate ideas in a way that causes zero offence.

That is also true and is also NOT was being suggested in my post.

There ARE ways to communicate that are less likely to cause offence to people who may be struggling to be open to advice and to listening. Less likely seems a good way to go and judging by many of your posts Starblaze I think you quite often go for a style that is less likely to cause offence and more likely to get someone listening.

It is easy to say, I have decided to be so offended by your tone that I will just chuck your advice in the bin so I can pretend I didn't hear it and don't need to self reflect and work on myself.

Yes it is ...and even easier if the style of posting exacerbates that tendency in someone!

Unless we want to just ostrasise anyone who has feelings and emotions or personal understanding

That was not being suggested either!!

Of course we know this more than most having parents who ignored the message no matter what form it came in.