Being bullied by close family - how did you put a stop to it?

Madgran is on the right track - this isn't about estrangement.

I can't walk away because I am involved in two joint projects with the two "bullies". I can't go into detail but the projects require administrative skills and the ability to understand legislation and joint decisions are needed from time to time.

The nastier one is a bully because she's a control freak who'll do anything to get her own way. That's why she's been divorced twice. She knows that by copying my late mother's bullying behaviour it will trigger the same reaction from me as when my mother was alive, making me really upset and stressed for disagreeing with her. She has no moral compass and puts her own needs above everyone else's.

The other one is a troublemaker and enjoys winding people up, but whilst she thinks she is being very crafty and subtle it is very transparent and I see through it straight away. She is easy to challenge and even to tease. She is annoying and a time waster but no more than that.

I am starting to think of them as donkeys with blinkers on - very unintelligent, stubborn and incapable of seeing the bigger picture. But at least donkeys don't try to hurt others.

I will take another look at Madgran's advice. Thanks to everyone for their help so far.

I salute you Grandmabatty, you've terminated their ability to cause any more stress, hurt or upheaval in your life. And you've already formulated your plan on how you're going to proceed once there's just your brother to deal with. We owe it to ourselves and our loved ones, to do whatever is necessary to stop the negativity that pervades the relationship, move beyond it and look to the future, not the past. Liberating once you've discovered it isn't it!

My mum has become very nasty and goading since dad died. She has never got over it, unfortunately my toxic brother lives with her because of his financial mismanagement. He can be incredibly aggressive and rude, as can she. The year I was 60 and also retired mum did her damnest to ruin every event that was organised for or by me. Since then I have detached emotionally from her and my brother. No longer does anything she says, get to me. I call out my brother when he speaks to me aggressively. I am superficially polite to him in company. I put up with mum because of her age but when she tries to goad me I either laugh or ignore the comment. I have cut my visits to once a week for an hour. If she is fine, then I stay the hour. If she kicks off, I leave. When she dies, my brother will never be in my home again. I have learned to protect myself from the pair of them.

I cannot understand why, once the difficult decision to estrange the bullying family members has finally been reached, why do you torment yourselves reliving it, rehashing it and dissecting it over and over again?

I agree Monica ...although in the case of the OP she has not actually come to that decision and is trying to find a way through, presumably to avoid estrangement. I suppose we all have to go though certain stages to make that final decision but once it has been made it does seem best to try to move on and live life to the full without them.

Helping others who are going through the process, using one's experiences to advise, can be positive of course if that is an aim although descriptions without relevant comment to a poster asking for help, may not really be helpful.

Star blaze - I'm really taken with your phrase, 'are not capable of being around you in a healthy way'. That perfectly describes my elder brother's interaction with our younger brother!

I'm glad your own family are bringing you joy. So have mine. And just when I had time to do too much thinking about the past, along came the grandchildren to keep me focussed on the future.

agree with MOnica, glad to see you back by the way !
i wouldn't try to tell someone how they are behaving because it is likely to further enrage them, and gets nowhere.
just walk away.
depends i guess on the context; if it is something you have to agree on, or if a decision has to be made.
but that is unusual. in most situations one can just withdraw.

Why do you waste time and emotion trying to reason with such people, they are immune to reason and you are only serving their purpose in engaging with them and trying to kind and reasonable?

This is the most sane post I've seen on the estrangement threads for a very long time so thank you M0nica. I cannot understand why, once the difficult decision to estrange the bullying family members has finally been reached, why do you torment yourselves reliving it, rehashing it and dissecting it over and over again? Surely, for your own mental health and wellbeing, you want to move on, put the past where it belongs and live the best life you can. That's the best revenge for those that hurt you isn't it?

Tea3 I get a bit excited about these sorts of techniques... Growing up in an abusive household does not get you many good life skills

Most people unfortunately don't listen actively and I notice it a lot now, there is a literal facial expression I've seen for "just hurry up and shut up so I can speak".

That's just day to day, it's even harder to listen when emotions are high.

I guess even if it doesn't work on certain people it's at least a clear red flag when it doesn't that those people just aren't capable of being around you in a healthy way.

Family relationships breaking down is so sad. We all want to be seen and heard. It's horrible when people paint a picture of you that suits the way they want to treat you. Awful when abusive parents pit siblings against each other on purpose.

I don't think I will ever fully get over the disruption my mum did to my family but at least my children are protected from the dysfunction and all growing up happy and confident.

Me too Madgran it can be frustrating when someone denies something you know they've said.

I agree that active listening is useful, something that I think comes naturally to most of us, but I can't and wont listen to someone who shouts at me and is abusive and/or threatening., so tend to use the first strategy you've mentioned.

I'm with you Starblaze on practising listening. It is valuable, and it is something I've tried to do more with friends since we've all retired. I just think some people don't feel they have to abide by normal social behaviour with family.
Maddyone I feel for you. My Mum had a cross to bear with my Father, but she struggled to take seriously any of us other than my elder brother and joined in the general dismissive mocking. It was so sad that until her dying day she believed this son was something he was not.

I am also someone who remembers accurately what people have said. This is sometimes a useful trait and sometimes less so! I agree with Starblaze that active listening can be a useful tool in many conversations,.

Regarding dealing with bullying RamblingRose22, it doesto some extent depend on what is being shouted about as to how one specifically responds ...but I have found two strategies helpful:

1. Stating clearly that I am happy to discuss this but that I will not tolerate being shouted. eg "I will not tolerate being shouted at but am happy to discuss this when you are ready", then removing myself. (ie not describing the persons behaviour to them but describing your own perspective on what you will/will not tolerate and what you are willing to do)

2. Stating "I hear that you want */would like to */ do not like etc etc ie describing your understanding of what they are saying, acknowledging what they are saying/wanting. Then following this by stating your own perspective clearly "I do not want to do **/I DO like *" This is often followed by more yelling about their own perspective to which the reply is " Well obviously feel differently so we either find a compromise as a solution or do things our own ways and not together." And then leave if the shouting continues!

|If you feel able, describing some scenarios that you have dealt with/are dealing with might be helpful so that strategies can be applied to what you describe more specifically.

In the end, no one has to put up with the behaviour you describe and overall I agree with Hithere

My sister hides behind her mental illness diagnosis. She can be very nice but she can be poison. Of course she was brought up by the same mother that I was, and our upbringing undoubtedly affected us both. She can be absolutely vile when it suits her. I have little to do with her now, having reached the end of my tether with her nasty remarks.

My mother, who I do love and still look after, used to abuse me, verbally not physically. She deliberately said things to wind me up or hurt me in some way, and sometimes laughed at my responses. She also made up lies about my husband. She never really changed until I started to challenge her. Now she is very old I have a better relationship with her. But the things she said have affected me for my whole life and I will never understand why she did it.

Also with abusive people, it's often your reaction they want. Attention for them or a reaction from you. I'm not in the business of giving abusive people either these days

Sometimes things are worth trying if you don't want to go the no contact route as OP asked.

I don't think it would have worked on my mum either and I have always been more of a listener than a talker... Online I am able to speak more but still get talked over lol

But it may be helpful to someone, most people don't really listen. I think it upsets people sometimes though that I remember so much of what they have said previously and now end up listening to the same stories a lot with my mouth shut about it lol

Starblaze - I read the article. This probably works if you are speaking with a normal, balanced ( non family member maybe) human being. My brother's conversational MO has always been to engage in every conversation about anything as a game that he is going to win. It was calmly detaching myself from a very upsetting exchange with him that led to the coolness in the first place - 'the little sister was not playing by his rules any more'. He is very wary of me these days so...
Ramblingrose22 you are right about putting up the barrier. I'm reminded of one of those daft little social tics that was popular with kids a few years ago, 'Speak to the hand, the face isn't listening', well, something like that anyway.

If one is a younger generation than the bully, the ultimate way to escape is to outlive them. That works really well, in my experience.

If they are one’s own generation or younger, the toddler treatment does the trick. Completely fail to react to bad (bullying) behaviours, but respond positively and generously to acceptable behaviour. People who are bullies don’t stop being bullies, but they pick and choose their victims, and if you refuse to respond as a victim, they give up trying to bully you.

PS i've taken to active listening to comments on social media too and its often very helpful when people are trying to wind you up to read the comment a few times or very slowly instead of just reacting to the one bit of the comment you don't like...

You can then respond calmly or not respond or just not read that person's comment at all if a pattern emerges.

Helpful for people that cannot be avoided in life and always leaves you the better person

Some interesting replies.

Starblaze- I agree with you that telling her she is angry/shouting/hysterical could be inflammatory but if I let her go on and on she'd think I was prepared to listen to her nonsense for as long as she wants.

M0nica - I have no intention of trying to reason with her. She is completely irrational anyway. My plan is to focus only on her behaviour and inform her that it is unacceptable. I am not going to discuss anything that she wants to talk/shout about.

Tea3 - sorry to hear about your issues with your brother. You are right about childhood jealousies never going away. This has a lot to do with what has been happening. I am resented for being clever and knowing more. It's been going on for years and making me feel upset is one way of getting back at me for this.

dontmindstaying home - your daughter is just being manipulative. It's good that you are able to walk out. People hate being ignored mid-rant!!! A shame that your DH is weak and gives in to her. It's like the person I complain of - they do it because they know it works.

I suppose half the battle is to move beyond the "I shouldn't be treated like this" feeling, which just adds to the stress and upset caused and to move on to accepting that I am dealing with a damaged personality who is incapable of change and put up a barrier so she knows that I will not listen to it anymore.

I found a good link that explains it, it really is a useful skill for anyone in any situation but it can diffuse arguments before they even start.

I learnt about this recently and find it very helpful in all areas and especially with my children as adults/teens

It also stops you reacting by focusing on what they are saying... When people are trying to push your buttons or wind you up in to saying or doing something you regret so they can make you look/feel bad... It helps you stay calm, centred and grounded.

www.beyondintractability.org/coreknowledge/active-listening

Ramblingrose,

You could be describing my daughter. I would gladly just walk away and let her get on with it but she has a young child who would suffer if we walked out of her life.

I have taken significant 'steps back' and things are definitely getting better. She knows now that I will no longer 'lend' money - which we never get back and I no longer just go out and buy things that she says her daughter needs.

If she starts ranting at me I just leave, I also just cut her off if she starts when on the phone.

Unfortunately my husband is very weak and gives in to her all the time (probably the reason she is the way she is). He will always hand over cash when she asks for it- it drives me mad! So unfortunately its an ongoing battle.

MOnica - your post went up whilst I was typing mine. I completely agree with your last paragraph re what a waste of time and emotion!

It took me years, decades even, to realise my elder brother has always thought of we three (not much) younger siblings in the same way as he did as a child. He's been encouraged in this dismissive, mocking attitude by a sociopathic father. During a family trauma, ten years ago, I was so irritated with my brother that I didn't contact him for ages. He didn't contact me either but made sure my name was mud around the extended family. After a few years we both came face to face at a family event and I just spoke to him normally. He struggled to say anything and looked daggers at me the whole afternoon. A few family funerals later and he is able to interact in a way that passes for normal for him with his siblings. Sometimes I wish I'd cut him out of my life for good. Mostly I find there is less stress in not having everyone think we are at daggers drawn. There are plenty of folk in the family ready to pour on petrol, enjoy the spectacle etc although that may be a speciality of my family only! So my experience is that childhood jealousies and resentments never go away and it's no good trying to engage.

Fortunately I have never suffered bullying at home, but I did face a bullying manager at work once. He got me into a small office with glass walls for maximum exposure. We briefly discussed a fairly minor problem with a member of my staff and then he got going on his well known shouting and humiliation ritual. When it started I looked at him hard and then got up and walked out of the room. It had never occurred to anyone to do that before. He was completely non-plussed and he never did anything like that to me again.

Reading your post above, Rambling Rose, and the others. Why do you waste time and emotion trying to reason with such people, they are immune to reason and you are only serving their purpose in engaging with them and trying to kind and reasonable? Next time they start winding themselves up and getting noisy and unpleasant, just turn your back on them and walk out of the room - and keep doing that until they get the message. It could take a lifetime, but it would save you a lot of hassle.

And there in lies the problem Ramblingrose "She does this because it works with a lot of people".

It's difficult to know what to advise, not knowing what your relationship with this family member is, that said IMO the more assertive approach is the right one.

Threatening and intimidating behaviour is out of order and waiting for her to 'get it out of her system' is tantamount to saying that it's OK to behave in that way.

If she sees that she will not be listened too when she behaves this way, that may be enough to encourage her to make some changes.