Hopeless dilemma

You asked how we feel about this man's behaviour and I think the posts above say it all...but the important thing is really where you DD goes from here.

From what you say there is no problem with child care so the children have no need to be left with him. I'd say there is a simple solution - only allow him very occasional access to his GC and then only when you and/or your DD is there.

No need to make an issue of it just sort of make that how it is.

I think your DD has two levels to this problem. Short term she can stop using FIL for child care, but long term there will have to be some sort of relationship between your DGS and FIL, she will need to decide how she approaches this and what she tellls both of them, but particularly your DGS to get them through things. I wonder about the MIL, could she be suffering violence and abuse?

You are right anya - I am sure that is the way forward.

We are all very upset about it just now though. Incandescent with rage would be a bit hearer the mark.

What a vile character this man is! Such a shame your DD's family has to depend on them for their livelihood. Thank goodness she doesn't have to rely on them totally for childcare too.
Meanwhile I don't see what else you can do other than continue to give them your support.

"What goes around comes around" springs to mind.

I can understand your strong feelings at the moment Lucky - I hope you all find a way to put this man'a behaviour behind you, he's not worth it.

I gasped out loud when reading this, not at the awful assault on a three year old (it was an assault - wallop sounds like a bit of a lark) but at the implication that no-one can say anything to the f*cker because he would cut off their source of income!

How many more beatings should this child be subject to at the hand of his grandfather because his mother and father are worried about their finances?

What an awful man, how lucky that your SiL turned out to be so nice. What a shame he has to work with his father.

Riverwalk Most families have financial commitments, such as rent/mortgage, and it is not always easy to give up working for a business and find another job.

Having said that, if it is at all possible it would be a good idea to at least investigate other employment options because this man seems to have a very unhealthy hold over the whole family and his behaviour towards the little boy sounds a bit unhinged to me.

If there really is no option but to continue in the business, I think your daughter or son-in-law should always be present when the in-laws are around.

You see a lot of men who go about "teasing" "goading" "playfighting" with very little kids. I find it appalling that some men seem to think it is fun to get little children involved in "play violence" A very small child has no idea of the rules or the boundaries.

Luckygirl Do you know the other grand mother enough to have a chat with her? Although as she has been living with this awful man for so long she is probably so ground down by that she would not say boo to a goose.

How does your SIL get on with his dad?
If I were your DD and SIL, I think that I would cut loose.

Luckygirl I can't really add to the advice you've already had about limiting the access of this man to your DGS, which doesn't sound too difficult. It goes without saying that I understand how very upset you and your DD must feel.

But I think what is perhaps just as important in the longterm is for your DD and SiL to work out how they can achieve some sort of financial independence from this man.He sounds a dreadful bully.
Without knowing how the business is structured, I've no idea how this could be managed but speaking generally, the FiL must be dependent in some way on SiL and DD's input into the business, perhaps more than they realise.
It might be time to sit down and work out how they can protect their interests - presumably FiL is not in the first flush of youth and perhaps should be thinking about his exit strategy. with a bit of help fro SiL and DD.

Good post Jane. I hope you feel a little better Luckygirl. It is a real worry for you.

Great name change! I felt furious for you as I was reading. My late MIL gave my DD one smack years ago and I was so angry I threatened she,d never see her again, it didn't happen twice. This is assault and bullying men like him will never change, you admit your SIL probably had a rotten childhood thank goodness he didn't repeat the pattern and is a loving father. I know it must be very difficult financially for them but I would be looking for an out employment wise, shares of the business can be looked at later when there is no emotional black mailing role . There is no positive experience here with this man for this lovely little boy. I do feel for you all and am glad you give him such love as a contrast. If he was difficult about the business I think I would threaten him with the police probably nobody has ever stood up to him before, bullies are cowards.

That is a good post from jane. Power often follows the money and the FIL seems to be exploiting his position as far as that goes.

I also agree with roses (I think it was her who said) to not escalate matters with police and who knows what else. Anyway you can't really do anything, as you say, it's for your DD and SIL to deal with. The little boy can be kept away from him. However, your paths will cross.

I was in the situation where my FIL threw my 5 year old son into the deep end of a swimming pool. My son swam (he could swim) to the edge and shocked, got out in tears, and ran to mommy, a perfect outcome for wanting to "man him up" (not). I was seething and I don't remember the detail but obviously I got the message across because it never happened again. My son, as an adult, loved that granddad very much and they found a way to have a relationship. Of course my son also had many other stable, loving, proper men as role models, that balanced things out.

But, three is tiny. I'd be mad as a snake too.

The Fil sounds like a REALLY nasty bully.

I had a similar Fil but fortunately he had no power over us so I kept contact to a minimum. My Fil had the crazy idea that rough play etc., would make sons and grandsons man up. It doesn't work like that. My OH was terrified of his dad.

I did stand up to my Fil but as I've said he had no power over me. It is so difficult for you Luckygirl. Keep being there for your daughter, she will probably know what to do - mums are good like that and she will probably work something out with her OH. I feel ashamed that the Fil is probably the same generation as me.

The fil is bullying his son. This will do nothing at all for his self esteem. Even if he doesnt show it now.
Working in a business set up like he is doing, gives him lots of transferrable skills.

Lucky girl he sounds very like my ex, a bully in charge of the purse strings! My ds was in the business with him and the bullying caused a lot of marital problems. My ds finally severed all ties with his father but it was very upsetting for him to 'lose' his dad.
I agree with janeainsworth, the best solution would be to become financially independent of this nasty man.

Very upsetting, Luckygirl.
Following on from Jane's sensible post, it does seem that your son in law is the person who should be stepping forward first to defend his small son.
You say he's away all summer, but really that's not good enough. If it's on business, things need to change on that front too.

Yes, the smacking incident seems to be part of a much larger, well established problem.

The whole family seems to regard FIL as someone who cannot be challenged whatever he does. I can understand this with the MIL and your SIL who grew up with him.

This is a bit fanciful maybe, but I'll say it anyway, FIL seems to be viewed a bit like the God of the Old Testament, flawed, capricious, fearsome and all powerful. Ha!

Try not to go along with it all because it seems to be getting to you too. You might manage to put things into perspective and calm the situation down a bit. It was four smacks on the bum and he probably loves his GS. His GS may even love him.

I agree with others that it would be good if your SIL and DD could at least explore other forms of employment. Maybe find out what their legal position is re the family business.

Finally, don't say anything to FIL yourself.

I know its awful but there are surprisingly many men of that generation who quite seriously would see no wrong in smacking a small child's bottom. Changing that perception will be extremely difficult for some and might be impossible for others. Pretend you're him, what might he be thinking? What sorts of approaches might he expect? If you're wanting (rightly) to change his behaviour you'll have to act smart rather than vindictive. Probably best just to keep DGS away from him. However he needs to change for many reasons not least the increasing likelihood of his losing his family. No easy answers.

It is complicated to explain why the business (which is my SIL's) is dependent on FIL.

There is no possibility of SIL not being away working in the summer, since his business stages massive events all around the country all summer and he has to be there. FIL owns another business which creates one of the major elements and attractions at these events, and without which they could not happen.

It is difficult to find a way of resolving it at the moment, as SIL is away and my DD is ill - vomiting, temperature etc - and we are looking after the children, getting them to school etc. No chance of thinking logically at the moment!

The only positive thing in all this is that the wee lad himself seems none the worse for the experience at the moment. He is sitting by me as I type and happily watching the Gruffalo.

FIL and MIL live nearer (very near - too near!) my DD and her OH than we do, and FIL just drops in ad lib and throws his weight about there.

My DD has worked very hard to keep relationships sweet and avoid any rift in the family, and I think that is something that makes this situation so very hard for her, as she is so disappointed that it has all gone pear-shaped after all her efforts.

Her (and my SIL's) first priority is to keep the children safe and I know that they will be taking any necessary steps to this end.

I think that one of the posters her was quite right to say that FIL will see no problem with what he did; but he must have got the message that DD was unhappy as she scooped her lad away and left the room without speaking to him.

I am grateful to you all for your kind advice.

lg that's what I was trying to say but in a clumsy manner - that children are often more resilient than we think and adults take on things in the longer term "on behalf of the children" when the children have long moved on.

As an aside, I'm reading Gareth Malone's book "Choir" at the moment and he describes where he went to do his choir thing at a school where the children had never had any realistic feedback, had always been protected, and he wasn't able to get on with teaching them and when he brought in a respected colleague who gave them robust feedback, they fell apart. he then had a session with them where he discussed the situation and the feedback and they could eventually see that the value of the experience and move on.

Interesting GN - but at least there is music in the school, which is getting a bit sparse in some areas.

I do think that my GS is fine - he is a bit confused with Dad being away and Mum in bed ill, but is generally OK.

The principle that you do not hit people is one that my DD and SIL feel very strongly about and her boys have learned that very early - to have a relative and an adult do it is so very wrong. But I think that we are all more upset about it than the lad himself. It is such a betrayal of trust - and if he would do it when my DD is there, who knows what happens when she is not. They will make sure it is not possible again I am sure.

It is heartening that so many of you don't seem to have any experience/understanding of this issue and think there is a solution. I am not so sure there is because I have experience of a man like that and you cannot simply get them to change or understand that their behaviour is wrong. Such men are blinkered and throw their weight and power around for whatever reason but cannot be challenged. That only leads to worse behaviour.

I wonder why the 3 yr old hit him? Has the smacking been going on for a while? Does the child think hitting is OK? Has there been any situation with the other child?

It is clear that the FiL will still be able to have contact with the child but it must always be supervised by someone other than the MiL who clearly won't intervene because of her relationship with FiL. I think that if play becomes too rough she will have to remove the child whatever FiL says or does and, just maybe, after a while he will ask why but I doubt it.

I play quite roughly with our 3 yr old gs but it is always with love and I seem to be the only one who gets hurt!

I wish them all the best of luck and hope they find a way through but I have no idea what would work.

As I said way back on the thread the actual act of goading, teasing and encouraging aggression almost worries me more, than a slapped bottom.

I don't agree with slapping but I think a quick slap once in a while, (say in an urgent situation) is far more understandable than promoting play fighting.
What a lot of stress for your DD and Sil. You have had enough lately Luckgirl