Scratch choirs and scratch orchestras

If you are all determined enough, yes. A social life, sense of community, giving pleasure to others, exercising your little grey cells, getting out and about to new places, making yourself practise at home, bringing a little more art into the world.

I can't see any negatives, really.

janerowena, thanks for your posting, and yes, all of those things, I agree

- but "making yourself practise at home" - well, I did this for long periods of time, practising for about two or three years, when I last picked up my violin, over 20 years ago.

I'm not sure if, now, after another 20 years of not playing, I want to spend lots of time polishing my (very rusty) technique for long periods of time on my own. Maybe I will, or not.

Maybe, as you say, a social life, a sense of community, will blossom - this has happened, gloriously and very ordinarily with my scratch choir involvement. But it didn't happen for the first two years.

So as you say, there are other bonuses. It can take a while. So do I want to go for that again?

Unless you plan to pop your clogs very shortly - why not? I sometimes wonder why I go to choir on a foggy cold frosty night in February, but when I get there all cares drop away because I have to concentrate, I think it's worth it for that 2 hours of brain break alone.

I'd love to join you! Haven't played mine for at least 30 years

If you love doing it onmy, then why stop. You seem to like a challenge from what I've gathered.

OH and I do lots of amateur music making with others - it is very good for you indeed.

Thanks for the replies, Janerowena. Me liking a challenge, ffinochio? Maybe too much so in the past, am trying to live a more peaceful life while paradoxically engaging more with others - this is slowly happening .

But

well, my attempts to increase my own self-knowledge over the years have led me to realise that I have been good at chaos management, but not good at organised planning.

So - take it a little slowly, I tell myself, leave any decision-making until the New Year - see how I feel then (lots of choir stuff until Christmas will keep me busy and fulfilled).

Galen, why not pick up your fiddle and have a go? Perhaps we could play a duet on Gransnet (in the New Year)?

Thanks for the replies, Janerowena, Mishap. Me liking a challenge, ffinochio? Maybe too much so in the past, am trying to live a more peaceful life while paradoxically engaging more with others - this is slowly happening .

But

well, my attempts to increase my own self-knowledge over the years have led me to realise that I have been good at chaos management, but not good at organised planning.

So - take it a little slowly, I tell myself, leave any decision-making until the New Year - see how I feel then (lots of choir stuff until Christmas will keep me busy and fulfilled).

Galen, why not pick up your fiddle and have a go? Perhaps we could play a duet on Gransnet (in the New Year)?

onmyown the only word of caution I would give is to make sure you don't join a group - choir OR orchestra that takes itself too seriously. I played in a woodwind group of similar aged ladies for about 10 years and loved it. We met weekly and gave several performances at church harvest festivals and the like. When we moved to the south coast I went to join a similar sized group here but found them far too advanced for me. I only went the once as a result and haven't played since.

My choir is a different story - absolutely loved the one I was in at our old location and feel just the same about the one I joined here. It's not too highbrow for my tastes and level of competence.

You have to know your limitations otherwise it just is not pleasureable.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Thanks, Gagagran - good advice. I'm pretty sure the new orchestra I'm investigating doesn't take itself too seriously. I think their philosophy that all are welcome whatever their ability is genuine. There are a few very good musicians who carry the rest of us and I know that as a performance draws near, other competent musicians join in and some regulars drop out for a while or for good. The same thing happens in the community choir. That seems to be the buzz of community music groups - all ARE welcome, and an unwritten code of self-deselection operates in practice, gently.

My dilemma is that, ironically, I feel that I want to take it seriously or not do it at all, NOW!!!. (Note to self - calm down) There are other options though that I can explore including another orchestra that seems to be less demanding. I just must not expect it all to come right straight away, even if I decide I am prepared to put in a lot of practice and maybe, as a fellow choir member has suggested, arrange a consultation/lesson or two to check out my technique.

When I started in the community choir (complete mixed ability, all welcome, no audition, just a voice check) after years of not singing, it took me about 6 months to find my feet - or rather my voice, and another two years before I became confident enough to be one of the competent ones who keeps a harmony going while others find it difficult and wander around a bit (as do I sometimes, its still difficult to keep going sometimes in this kind of set up!) I do that now, and love it. And our regular performances are good, I am sure of that.

Thanks again. I will think on, and see if my fingers start to twitch with a desire to experience the strange but seductive sounds of horse hair on catgut again, between now and the New Year. At the moment I have closed the lid on my violin case, but it is close by, and who knows, I may open it again soon.

I can understand your reluctance, but I belong to two very different choirs, one is a community choir and we do get people coming along who have never read music. We really look after them, and find them links to midi files so that they can sing along and learn their part that way, or make our own if we can't find any, burn them onto CDs if necessary or show them where to buy CDs for their parts, and arrange a singing lesson with our pianist if they are scared before a concert. Some do chicken out just before a concert, it's true, but we just hope they will come back and try again the following term. Some are so nice, and we really miss them when they leave. I love both. I love the friendly informal atmosphere of the community choir but I also love being able to sing very different music with the other choir.

JaneRowena I belong to two, as well a community choir I joined in about 2009 and a choral society type I joined in late 2011 when I retired.

That was very hard work at first, but as you said, support from stronger singers around you can really help you up you game game.

I am beginning to get the hang of it now! I cannot say I like all the choral music we do, but when you are singing and it goes well you just enjoy the achievement.

I for one would never wish to hear the Stainer Crucifixion ever again, but apparently there are those who like it....

Also, we raise a fortune for charity. This means that if you don't carry on doing it, you start to feel very guilty. Apparently Center Parcs (who pay us £1000 a night for our services) have demanded that they choose the songs this year, so I would guess that they don't like our musical director's taste in music much either!

I got sooooo fed up of flinging wide the gates, I boough the choirmaster a door wedge!

I wish there was an amateur choir around here. I love singing.

HildajenniJ - note janerowena and nellymosers comments about being in two different choirs - there ARE two (and more) different sorts of choirs. Thanks janerowena and nellymosers for your posts.

I feel your longing, HildajenniJ, and so I say, search for a choir and choir leader that suits you. I lived in a rural area in Wales when my children were growing up, and no hope of anything other than church music and serious choral society music, which I had grown up with. I love singing beautiful sacred music SOME of the time but I am a humanist so I can't hack it ALL of the time.

Then, wow, a new music teacher arrived at my daughters' rural comprehensive. He was an early Gareth Malone. He turned the school music scene upside down, while still respecting classical and church traditions. But still no chance, then, about 25 years ago, of a Gareth Malone type experience for me.

Now, though, I am in a large town and there are lots of opportunities and different styles of choirs spring up almost every month, it seems. New-style music teachers, choir leaders and choirs are co-existing with old-style choral societies, male voice choirs etc. All equally wonderful and we all meet up at festivals of song every year. I've been doing this for 5 years now, the first 6 months, were strange, challenging, but exciting.

I suggest you check out Gareth Malone online, and search locally online for a Gareth Malone type choir leader or community choir (if that's what would suit you) or any sort of choral group that might interest you - Country and Western, Georgian chanting, Gospel, Madrigal, whatever!

I know its difficult in rural areas - we used to say in deepest rural Wales, that if you can get three other people to come to a a meeting its a success. But you might be surprised. I heard recently that someone here advertised to start a choir in a local suburb (lots of new houses) and about 90 people turned up!

Go for it and let us know how you are progressing. Put a message in your local paper or any other local media, or talk to neighbours, friends, community workers, local councillors. There is support out there, you don't have to be a front line leader, just someone to start up a conversation, with the possibility of singing for pleasure (and we feel so good afterwards, I believe it might be something to do with endorphins?)

Janerowena and Nelliemoser

I agree with everything you say. Our community choir leader loves what we do (pop, Latin American, African, Bulgarian, madrigal, carols, 19th century romantic) and all is in 4 part harmony, all with sheet music and CD listening aids. But he and others are also in local choral society and like you, love to be in the two different types of choirs.

Meanwhile I estimate over 50% of our community choir do not read music but our great, dear leader produces sweet harmonies from us nonetheless - with his own exciting arrangements, which we have in sheet music form and also in the form of CDs for the different parts, sopranos, altos, tenors, basses.

Additionally we sing at festivals with other local choirs, who learn their parts entirely by ear or by CD, MP3, UTube recordings, being taken through them separately before the parts are all put together. Maybe their harmonies are less complex than ours are but they produce beautiful sweet sounds that we can only hope to emulate.

- Well, I haven't sung or heard Stainers crucifixion since I was about 12 - loved it then and I could still join in if I heard it and would love to sing it again, but once would be enough! (I am Alpha, and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord - was that it?)

Running community choirs and singing opportunities for all sorts of people has been the focus of my life for the last 20 years or so - indeed I am in the middle of organising an event for about 300 singers. But it is all on hold for me at the moment as I am convalescing slowly, so I am frustratingly having to delegate. I have missed out first massed rehearsal today, which I was supposed to be co-conducting - I am so desperate to get better and back in the swing of all this!

These things are so very good for one's health and well-being; and one of my life's obsessions has been that music is for ALL not just the very gifted; and that each has its place in the scheme of things. We all love to hear virtuosi and treasure their skills and talents; but I enjoy just as much hearing people sing and play with joy regardless of their skill levels. Music is the birthright of us all and no-one should be excluded.

Stainer's Crucifixion? - what a ghastly crass load of old rubbish - I truly hate it!

I have just been to listen to a choral society concert in a nearby town. It's a way better standard than mine I have to say. They have a very skilled conductor.

They did "For the fallen" (They shall grow not old) the Maurice Durufle Requiem C1947.and The Haydn Nelson Mass. All very good stuff.

A friend at my choir has been trying to persuade me to go and do the Haydn Nelson Mass at a come and sing day in January with the even more high powered Salford Choral Society.
I wasn't sure at first having been rather unimpressed by Haydn's The Seasons, but having heard the Nelson Mass tonight I really want a go at that. These come and sing days can be great fun.

At a U3A group I passed round a leaflet about our forthcoming concert and had a very disdainful response from someone about it being an "amateur performance" I was too gobsmacked to reply. In Britain we have a fantastic tradition of choral societies made up of non professionals and many of them are very good indeed.

Very unseasonably, I've just been listening to the Easter Hymn. Ive suddenly rediscovered my love of classical music.
Anyone know of a good digital DVD recording of Magic Flute?

No, sorry. Have you ever tried Spotify, Galen? It takes a while to get going, but you can make your own radio station up by putting in a search for music you like. If you 'like' a piece, they will play you something similar. So just choose Classical to start with. Do a search for the Magic Flute, and they will play a section, then go onto something else that is similar. Or you can choose the whole album by ticking all the movements. It does take a while to work your way around the site, but when I am cooking or doing te housework I have all my favourites playing away in the background, or I can choose to have them play me even more suggestions and I can ignore or like them, to be added to my playlist, as I choose. Their musical library is vast and they say that only around 60% of their classical library has been accessed so far. I can have Tina Turner on one moment, followed by a spot of Vivaldi, followed by Barbra Streisand followed by Mozart. They do play adverts, but they are all music-related. Picture adverts can be moved out of the way just by moving your mouse across them. Or swiping your finger on tablets.

I just had a quick look, the London Philharmonic Orchestra seems to be people's favourite followed by the Berlin Symphony Orchestra.

Mishap, please keep in touch, take it easy, rest and let us know how you are. Delegating and convalescing must be so difficult in your situation.

And at the same time, you say you are right when you say so convincingly and wonderfully that:-

"These things are so very good for one's health and well-being; and one of my life's obsessions has been that music is for ALL not just the very gifted; and that each has its place in the scheme of things. We all love to hear virtuosi and treasure their skills and talents; but I enjoy just as much hearing people sing and play with joy regardless of their skill levels. Music is the birthright of us all and no-one should be excluded."

You are so right. Please let us know how you are, and how the recent music event (300 singers) and first massed rehearsal has gone. But most of all, take time and care to look after yourself, and maybe sit back and enjoy how much you have organised singing opportunities for so many people

well deserved bouquets to you

NellieMoser - take no notice of the disdainful response you received -

In my experience, choral come-and-sing days are brilliant - go for the Hayden Nelson Mass if you are familiar with choral singing. You might have been unimpressed by a previous performance, but if you are familiar with the format, then go along and try it out - as you say, come- and-sing days can be great fun. I've sung along in the last two years, in several events (Brahms, Mendlesohn, Elgar) led by our local Choral Society choirmaster who is very welcoming to newcomers (although often ascerbic, as so many choirmasters are! - so if we are not sure about what is going on we just keep quiet - best bet is to stand next to someone who really knows the piece!).

You refer to "a disdainful response from someone about it being an "amateur performance". You say "I was too gobsmacked to reply. In Britain we have a fantastic tradition of choral societies made up of non professionals and many of them are very good indeed."

Yes, forget the sender of the disdainful reply. There is a lot of snobbery around classical music but fortunately it is dying a death (slowly). Community choirs are moving in, infiltrating and allowing for more than one style of choir singing to blossom? See the Proms - all the classics and all the modern composers - alongside musicals, Gilbert and Sullivan, film music. What's not to like?