EU - I'm in a quandary

I haven't read through all these posts, far too many and argumentative, but yesterday I was talking with a friend whose daughter emigrated to New Zealand with her family, and now has dual citizenship. My friend said that her daughter was a little cross with herself because she had missed out on her chance to vote on the referendum debate in this country. I just sort of mentioned, that well she did not live here any more, so it was not really any of her business, and the reply to that was "well it might be good for New Zealand if we were no longer in the EU". Really? I thought it was all about this country, and those folk who live here, and what was best for us, whether it is in our out.

Printmiss we have been hearing what other countries and people in other countries think so why not listen to what they think then believe or dismiss as we want.

Well, we know that Russia wants us 'Out' for a start I guess...

...apologies; Russia 'allegedly' want us 'out'.

I think Gove did very well on TV
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/680294/Question-Time-BBC-Michael-Gove-Brexit-EU-referendum

As I've already said he answered no question properly and used lots of soundbites.If that's 'doing well' then sobeit.

Lord Howard, a former Conservative Party leader, blasted the Remain team for their "scaremongering" during the campaign.
He told Nick Ferrari on LBC there had been a lot of "guesswork in the campaign" but not many facts.
Lord Howard said: "There are three facts.
"Number one: If we leave the European Union, we won’t have to pay billions of pounds a year into their coffers.
"Number two: If we leave, we can control immigration into this country.
"Number three: If we leave, our parliament and our courts will no longer be subordinate to the European Court of Justice.
"We will be an independent self-governing country again.
"Pretty well everything else is guesswork.”

I hope you've just listened to the universally respected Kenneth Clarke [Remian]on the BBC news channel. Answered every question in a sensible and concise way apart from one where he said he hadn't read the report and therefore couldn't answer properly.

Printmiss your friend's daughter who lives in NZ might think the UK should leave the EU, but that is not necessarly a view shared by other New Zealanders, the Prime Minister of NZ for one. The foreign leaders who want us to REMAIN include:

• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand

Of course some people don't think we should pay any attention to the opinions of foreigners, so why do they pay so much attention to Rupert Murdoch?

I find the whole issue ironic. Just a couple of reasons why.

I see people that put the Financial Institutions and so called Capitalist / Davos set on a peddlestool of truth, honesty , should be the oracles of our future as their knowledge is better than anybody's , they are the intellectual elite when it comes to our economy. YET before the referendum the same people called them the devil incarnate, wanted to topple their very existance.

I see people who have 'thought' they held a moral high ground and stood up for the working classes, the poor the disenfranchised YET now they consider them ignorant , diss their views, think they know better than them. They are not listening to those who are living in areas that are coping with so many of the problems repeatedly high lighted such as housing, health services, jobs, immigration. If they do it is only to blame the present government for all their ills whilst we all know past and present governments have got us to where we are.

The depressing thing for me is there is no honesty , there has been a total lack of intelligent joined up thinking and party politics an class warfare has remained throughout to dominate the debate. It has and will not give the 'Still in a Quandry' voter any help to come to a decision, it does as I said before just makes voters switch off.

I can't help but feel that, when there is reference to people who 'lack intelligence' what they really mean are BNP supporters; I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that every last one of them will be voting 'Leave' which would make up my mind for me even if I hadn't already done so.

I honestly have no idea. What I do know is that Ken Clarke says stay and I respect him. As politicians go, he is /was as about as honest as they come. i know someone who worked under him and they have told me he's a decent chap.

It's going to be down to being influenced by someone like this who I feel is actually saying the truth, and not spouting propaganda

So I might be in.........

I've never heard a bad word spoken about him. His wife was lovely as well [not that that's got anything to do with the EU].

POGS "^there has been a total lack of intelligent joined up thinking^"

I'm not sure if you've spotted the irony in your post. I don't think I've mentioned 'lack of intelligence' and I certainly haven't equated lack of intelligence with poverty and social class.

However, I do agree with you that there's been a total lack of intelligent, joined up thinking in much of what people have written and said (including by politicians).

It's a fact shown by many surveys that the people who are most likely to vote 'out' are older, have lower educational qualifications and are more likely to live in certain areas. The reasons are probably to do with having had fewer opportunities and not seeing the 'bigger picture'. This doesn't have anything to do with intelligence, because older people had fewer educational opportunities.

Wow !

Daphnedil

Your last sentence says " This doesn't have anything to do with intelligence because older people had fewer educational opportunities".

You make that statement to mitigate the fact you are practically saying the oldies 'will probably' be voting out because they are intellectually bereft, come from 'certain areas', and are incapable of 'seeing the bigger picture'.

You make my point for me. Those with an entrenched opinion are not listening to the working classes , those living in the areas having to deal with the problems. The entrenched believe they suffer from an 'educational disadvantage' hence they will vote in opposition to those who think they are better educated .

There is a wake up call happening for this type thinking and I believe there could be some interesting political repercussions after the referendum.

For anyone still in a quandary, here's another quiz

ig.ft.com/sites/how-should-i-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/

Exactly POGS there has been a policy almost of 'not listening' to people for years,
And now we will see what happens.

It's a fact shown by many surveys that the people who are most likely to vote 'out' are older, have lower educational qualifications and are more likely to live in certain areas. The reasons are probably to do with having had fewer opportunities and not seeing the 'bigger picture'. This doesn't have anything to do with intelligence, because older people had fewer educational opportunities.
There are some astonishing suppositions on some threads and some very patronising comments about people who may vote OUT!!

Must copy this post out for my friend who is very strongly for Brexit. He has a PhD and has been called in to many companies to steer them through difficult times! Oh, he's over 70 btw

And many younger people I know with their excellent qualifications but see the EU as an encumbrance to enterprise.

Slowly but surely some posters are persuading me to change my mind and that OUT may be better
(and they are the Remainers)

Both campaigns have been temporarily suspended on the news that MP Jo cox has died after an attack while making a public appearance at a library.

Would it be a good idea for the EU threads on GN to hold a ceasefire too?

Yes

I was just about to suggest the same.

Well one group I would not listen to would be random posters on a forum. What I would want would be reasoned factual explanation of all the issues, particularly the ecomomics of it.

There have been far too many people making allegations of "just scare mongering propaganda" even when well informed professionals give their opinion.

Think about the governer of the Bank of England. (Who is a Canadian.) He is employed to "look after" the economic health of the Bank. Europe is totally irrevelant for him personally. He is just doing his job as an economics guru. He also has been accused of scare mongering.
The level of serious discussion on this referendum which is on the media is very limited.

www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/

as we are being bombarded from all sides- it's really helpful to have the opinion of a very experienced EU Law Lecturer who has studied the issues for decades.