Relationships are they so awful?

There have been a number of disgruntled grandparents complaining that they help with childcare so their adult children can drive cars/go on holiday/buy a house. If we don't want to help with childcare, either because we want to enjoy their own lives in a different way or because health prevents us doing so, then why don't we just say that. If finances make it possible, we could contribute by helping with the (astronomical) cost of child care, if we want to.

You sound, however as if you resent the commitment (reference to their "2 cars,2 holidays etc") and there is also the equally valid principle "my children my problem".
I appreciate that most parents would want to help out where they can as childcare is expensive.
No way does my original post cast doubt on the precept that our children are for life.

Of 'course we feel obligation to our children, what parent doesn't

Is that your choice? Or are you saying you feel an obligation to your children?

Might I just say that children are for life, our life, no one asked to be born, we babysit 2 GC while their parents work, just so they can afford a £230,000 house. They bot have cars and 2 holidays a year.

Good point about forums such as Gransnet, Alea. In a way they are like therapy groups, or support groups.

I personally don't believe that in reliving bad memories can help anyone. It helps to talk and get perspective and if there are no family or friends that you can talk to, perhaps talking to a a therapist serves a purpose. Constantly rehashing things just makes you relive it. So talk about it but don't let what happened define you as a person and move on. Every family has its problems and sometimes a little breathing space is needed.

Agreeing totally with Anya and ffinnochio*, is it stating the obvious to add that therapy can only change how you deal with a situation , it cannot change circumstances or make the situation go away (unless it is of your own making) just as anti-depressants cannot make an external problem (poverty, an abusive partner, bereavement, unemployment) go away, but help or enable you to handle it.
Too often it seems that there can be a belief that recourse to medicine or therapy will ""fix" things.
Finally, peer or self-help groups - and I include GN- how often have we seen quite a hostile reaction when the "pat on the head" you refer to is not forthcoming.

... oops ... meant to say last but one closing comment.

Also agree with Anya's closing comment.

Along with being completely trustworthy, a good psychotherapist will be robust, challenging, insightful and, at times, confrontational, and will expect the client to work at dealing with their issues, as well as possessing the softer elements of therapeutic work. Needless to say they should be very well qualified, and have good and regular supervision.
It's not supposed to be a walk in the park and a pat on the head.

Therapists or counsellors should not be wussy, woolly or "sweet" - they are trained to listen, and to hold up a mirror, as it were, to allow people to see themselves and the situation they are in from another perspective, and/or to help people to understand their situation and move forward. Some, of course, are far better than others.

The best are excellent and the worst are useless.

They certainly don't revel in situations as they've heard it all before, many times.

Well, I might have to reconsider my ill-informed view on this, GarlicCake. She sounds like my kind of therapist!

GarlicCake - you've reminded me that I belonged to a therapy group once and found it very helpful. I don't think I would take to individual therapy.
And when I was working (as a psychologist) I ran a therapy group for adolescents which seemed to go well. They all turned up regularly anyway.
I don't know why there isn't more group therapy, It must be a more economical form of treatment, in time and money.

I always imagine a therapist would be like your "sweet" friend who is sooo sympathetic when you have problems and wants to hear the whole story, while secretly revelling in the whole situation.

That's what I used to think, madame! In fact, it was what I hoped for when I turned up for my first-ever appointment. "So what's going on in your life?" she asked. In the past week I'd turned 45, had an ovary removed and my husband had left me. "So you've lost two awkward lumps of flesh," she said, "Happy birthday"

Some are totally wussy & woolly though.
I agree with your final paragraph.

I have never considered therapy - I tend to overthink everything anyway and the last thing I need is encouragement!

I always imagine a therapist would be like your "sweet" friend who is sooo sympathetic when you have problems and wants to hear the whole story, while secretly revelling in the whole situation. Apologies to any therapists on GN, that's probably totally unfair, but I really don't understand why anyone would want to involve themselves in others' problems, unless they were close friends or family. I remember Roger Moore's comment when asked about his seemingly sunny personality and untroubled outlook on life. He said, "The trouble with sharing your problems is that 90% of people don't care and most of the rest are glad you've got them", A little cynical, perhaps, but I have to admit that's pretty much how I look at it.

I don't think many people set out to cause hurt and distress in relationships, but reading some of the threads on GN, it seems that most of the problems are caused because someone else has not behaved as the particular poster would like them to. In my own relationships, I tend to cut other people as much slack as I can stand to, but beyond a certain point I do stop contact with them or keep it to the absolute minimum possible. We can't dictate how others should behave, but if they cause us distress, I don't think anything is gained by endlessly analysing their reasons for the behaviour or explaining to anyone else why it upsets us so much. Some relationships will never work well because of the personalities involved and sometimes we just have to accept that.

Rereading my last post, I think I should have said that I realize some pain is too great for one to be able to manage it oneself. Look at the pain so many people are in here. But that gets back to needing to reach out for counseling or for groups like these.

GA, sorry you were eventually disappointed in your chosen career and hope you discovered something else that you enjoy. I found your post very interesting and informative. I hesitate to make this next comment cuz I don't have your knowledge or expertise, but I would guess that one person's crappy therapist is another person's godsend. We all respond to different practitioners in any field (I do realize there are some phonies and some truly bad ones). And maybe different types of therapy, too - which may be why we need the 7 types referenced earlier...

I note Celia Walden in today's DT says how "therapy-speak and psycho- lingo have soaked through everything....permeating our souls with a gloopy empathy that is more irritating than useful to anyone you are trying to help"
Perhaps that is part of the problem, everyone feels qualified to dish out the psychobabble without the relevant training, and expertise or accountability.

Grannyactivist, I had some terrible therapists! And also some gifted, knowledgeable ones. I think that, in the beginning, it wouldn't have mattered too much if the practitioner was incompetent: I needed to be heard more than anything else. As things moved along, though, it became easier to recognise when a counsellor was projecting their own crap onto my story or out of their depth - and to guide the sessions myself, while looking around for a stronger alternative.

Groups have been massively helpful for me ... although, again, some groups simply reflect their members' weaknesses onto each other like an echo chamber, whilst others are full of healthy & insightful challenges.

WendySue............or they blame their parents! Dare I say it?

Grannyactivist......good points! A lot of the courses today are about raking in the fees rather than quality and suitability of the person.

So true, Garlic, so true!

Nina, thanks for that very thorough discussion of therapy! You put a lot in perspective.

" This becomes self defeating because the client then doesn't learn to manage and master their emotional health."

Then again, some people don't know how to do that to begin with or even that they should. They hold other people responsible for their happiness, etc. Of course, obviously, people can impact the happiness of those around them. But some people seem to think that it's their loved ones' job to meet their every expectation to keep them happy. Hopefully, therapy give such people the tools to manage their own emotions, if you know what I mean.

Gonosuch, if who had lost what?

I have worked in this field; I had extensive training as a counsellor and also studied psychology, but I always find discussions about counselling/therapy a bit like sitting on razor blades. When I did my initial training in 1979/80 I had very positive experiences and enjoyed working as a member of a counselling team. My supervisor and colleagues were people I had a huge admiration and respect for and I never queried their professionalism.

As time went on and regulation became better (a good thing of course) more and more training courses sprang up and suddenly it became the thing to either become a counsellor or receive counselling/therapy. As part of my continuing professional development I attended many courses where, if I'm honest, I met people who I wouldn't let near my dog, much less into my head. When it comes to counselling it is really important for the profession if there is recognition some people will not make effective practitioners, but no-one ever failed any of the courses I took. I gradually lost a lot of faith in the system of training and I eventually withdrew from the profession. I do still know some counsellors/therapists who are remarkably good at what they do, but if I was advising someone to get counselling I wouldn't trust a counsellor having done a training course as sufficient recommendation. Although I most certainly wouldn't go to anyone who wasn't trained and under regular supervision.

Back to Alea's post: I think it's a good thing that people don't just 'put up with' things and that they seek appropriate help, but sometimes I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction and we live (here in the affluent West) in a culture of unrealistic expectation that all too often leads to dissatisfaction.

How would it have been if we had lost, I take it that you know.

Wendysue, again I think it's a generational thing. Our grandparents were taught not to indulge and show their feelings, it was a sign of weakness. Stiff upper lip all the way. Our parents were taught to suffer in silence too, especially women who have only really found equality to a degree in the last 50 years. Foe example, it wasn't until 1991, that the House of Lords in the UK, ruled that it was a crime for a husband to rape his wife. Again, and even not that long ago, our mothers were having to put up with a lot of stifled and repressed emotions behind closed doors. The uncovering of child abuse and domestic violence has meant that society has deemed these issues completely unnacceptable. Nevertheless, we still have to manage their impact and once victims are encouraged to open up and talk, they need help to manage and cope with their feelings. All good so far. That said there is a danger of having too much therapy and then people becoming dependent on it as with any drug or fix. In most counselling and therapy professions, there is a cut off point at which the therapist concludes the ending of sessions. However, therapy can be addictive and there's nothing to stop the client from 'hooking' up with another therapist. This becomes self defeating because the client then doesn't learn to manage and master their emotional health. What they are trying to do is get someone to parent them through life, which obviously isn't healthy. So it does have it's drawbacks.
How do know? I've studied psychology for years but never wanted to work in the field. I did qualify as a life coach however which is about motivating people towards finding their direction in life rather than therapy for dealing with past issues. I don't work in this field either! I do something completely different.

It's a positive sign to me, too, Wendy

How often one sees a blustering bully going "Never did me any harm!" while everybody else quietly observes his purple face and cowed wife/child/employee ... thinking "Really "