Should the catholic church be asking schoolchildren to sign this petition?

Lydia, yes, we certainly are in agreement about keeping abusers away from children, but I am not sure you understand my hostility to the church in this matter. The relative numbers of priests and other clergy or laity who abuse children are unimportant, no matter which studies you use. The point is that senior members of the catholic church knew about these crimes and covered them up. I don't think there is any other institution that has gone to such lengths to protect abusers.
I do feel sorry for devout catholics who must feel completely let down by the church - certainly it has had a profound effect in Ireland. The church will probably never again command the reverence and respect upon which it relied, and which enabled the dreadful catalogue of sins against children to continue.

Now to discuss the real thread

I don't believe any child in any School can sign anything without the authorisation of a parent so the letter was to be sent home so the parent will no doubt discuss the decision and may even decide whether they are to sign or not

As for the discussion of whether or not the government should change the definition of marriage

I note any person who states as I do that they believe marriage is and should be kept as a religious ceremony is automatically homophobic
So what does that make Peter Tatchel the person leading the campaign to change marriage

I spoke to him online during the campaign to close Catholic adoption agencies

He stated and with much vehemence and swearing incidentally that he would indeed close all Catholic adoption agencies and would put every priest in prison who refused to marry same sex couples

If we now look at the number of people in this country who have signed petitions to keep marriage as it is
The number of people supporting keeping marriage as it is far out ways the opposite
This is nothing short of an anti Christian and particularly an anti Catholic campaign

I can make a guarantee that if the government bring in a bill to change the law to allow marriage in church of same sex couples that the very next day we will see a case brought against a priest for not allowing a same sex couple to marry in the catholic church
Now lets look at what that will achieve
Could it be that catholic couples will no longer be able to marry in church or could it be that our priests will go to prison

But the most important thing for me is that this is in actual fact a small group of anti Christian anti Catholic people running this campaign because many people who are homosexual do not agree with their campaign

Greatnan
I agree with you

The whole issue was handled wrongly

All they did was put more children in danger and have caused really wonderful people who have spent their lives working for nothing to help other people a bad name
I hope the fact that people are more open about their sexual orientation will stop the fear of being found out
The time that was brought home to me was when I watched our old men on their knees praying asking for forgiveness for our church and to clear their church of these people
It was heartbreaking to watch
It truly brought me to tears
Our Cardinal is very outspoken but when he speaks you have no doubt about his love of people

Lydia Centuries before the Christian church existed, couples were making public promises to be joined to each other in marriage. Even in church today, the vows made are NOT to God, but to one another "in the sight of God" for those who believe, and many people do not bring God into their ceremony at all.

The church defined what they saw as the purposes of marriage - the procreation of children, the avoidance of promiscuity, and the mutual comfort the pair would provide for one another, but these aims and desires were already in existence before they were so defined.

Should countless generations have been consigned to living alone because the church had not yet perfected their monopoly on "marriage" ? Are non-christians all "bastards" and "fornicators" ?

But Lynn - we have had non-religious marriages for a long time. You might not like it, but that is the law. Marriage as defined by the Christian church is comparatively new in relation to the length of time that people have been forming sexual relationships all over the world. There are many different forms of partnership in different cultures and marriage as we now know it was the preserve of the rich until fairly recently. You speak as though your definition was set in stone and should govern the lives of all people all over the world.

I am not responsible for anything Peter Tatchell says or does, although I think he has been very brave on several occasions.

The number of people signing the petition is, I believe, about half a million. I think that leaves over fifty five million who have not signed it.
Whether or not the school children under 16 could sign the petition is a red herring - I do not think it should have been read out in schools and I think some headteachers agreed with me.

Some of your extrapolations are really quite odd - for example, why on earth should catholic couples not be allowed to marry in church just because same sex couples are allowed to marry in a civil ceremony?

May I ask the name of your cardinal? I hope it is not Sean Brady.

Rereading (should have previewed) I meant to type "many people have a civil ceremony and do not bring God into it at all"

Elegran -I think you might not have pressed to post - could you let us know your full thoughts?

Elegran's post is there, Greatnan - 12.09.37

I did press "post" Greatnan just before you did - mine appeared just before your previous post.

Unless you want even more of my bletherings.....

No one is trying to legislate that churches must marry gay people.
The law will be about register office weddings. Full marriage in law, for those who want it, whether gay or straight. That is all.
Hoo-ha is because the churches want to stick their noses into the lives of non-members. As per usual.

Why do some people think that no-one can be a good, law-abiding, sober, faithfully married, exemplary parent and citizen unless they subscribe to the exact rituals that they themselves believe in?

Big-endians vs Little-endians.

Because they've been indoctrinated from birth to be narrow-minded and intolerant.

You have to feel sorry for them really. It must be rotten to be so angry all the time.

Random thoughts on this post!
As Christian marriage was originally about transfer of property ie a father handing his daughter/property to another man it is , IMO, rather outmoded.

If someone has a strong faith and wants to make marriage promises in front of their god I have no major problem with that. If that faith is anti -gay or sees it as a deviant lifestyle I am not sure, if I was gay, that I would want to be part of that faith group.

I do not think that one person's faith should interfere with another persons lifestyle.

Children ( under 16) should not be signing petitions unless they have a real understanding of the implications and the opportunity to discuss / hear both sides of the argument.

I got married in a church to please my mum! One daughter got married in a civil and then humanist ceremony. One daughter lives in an unmarried partnership with the father of their two children. Think the chances of long term togetherness has nothing to do with the ceremony or lack of at the start!

Agreed, nanaej There are people who have never signed a single piece of paper who are married to all eternity, and others who went through all the magnificence of church nuptials who would have been more honest had they admitted that they were only really after a brief thrill.

As for getting schoolchildren to sign a petition they do not understand, about relationships they have not experienced and people they have never met ..... words fail me.

You made me think, nanaej. My DS2 and his partner have been together now longer than my husband and I - married in Christian ceremony - managed. You can't measure commitment by the ring on the finger.

Four cheers for Obama! He is pushing for same-sex civil marriages in the USA.

Good point nanaej. Marriage is used in many cultures to try to ensure that men bring up their biological children - once married women are supposed to be "faithful".
Another way of looking at it is that it is a way of encouraging men to be responsible and not run round town impregnating and not taking responsibility.
It is all these things, but the "religious" aspect of it is a method of social control that encourages monogamy. All the talk of holy sacrament is post hoc justification.
Did Jesus ever have anything to say about it?
And "go Obama" - he is a long way from perfect but he is a darn sight better than the republicans...

He seems to be a darned sight better than JFK too! What a pity he is so often stymied by the Republicans and religious pressure groups.

JessM I think marriage in most cultures was also a means of ensuring that a man knew that any children were his (married women didn't have many opportunities for adultery). This also ensured that property was passed to a genuine son. It's just control again.

I doubt very much if children can make an informed decision without hearing both sides of the debate and I also doubt very much if the Catholic Church would allow gay people to talk to the children to balance the debate.

Quite so, hicaz. Fortunately, there are many programmes on TV which young people might watch, which give a more balanced view of homosexuality.

I hope we haven't lost horatio - perhaps he has been swayed by our persuasive posts.

That's what I meant "absent", not v well expressed that day.
There was an american evangelist being interviewed on the radio saying that somehow homosexual marriage would detract from his marriage which was all about raising children. I wonder if heterosexual marriages where there are no children also somehow devalue his holy union? Seems to the be weak point in the "marriage is for procreation" argument.

Quite. And then there are all those dreadful people who somehow manage to have children without ever getting married, and to raise them as responsible citizens.

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