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John Rutter on religion

(157 Posts)
Mishap Fri 28-Dec-12 21:32:13

I have just come across this interview with John Rutter the composer and I find it absolutely delightful - I identify with it so strongly - and his extraordinary personality shines through. I have edited it heavily, as the original is long (and can be found here: http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/DO/filmshow/ruttertx1.htm). I think the first and last sentences are fascinating!

"I am friend, fellow traveller, and agnostic supporter of the Christian faith; in my early days, people described themselves by default as Church of England if they didn't really have any religious affiliation...........I sang in the chapel choir and was always interested in religious studies, but somehow being a non-joiner became a habit; although I think I probably was religious in quite a powerful sense when I was young and into my twenties, not least because I felt so lucky as my career began to take off and things began to go well for me.......... a kind of theology of gratitude; probably can't take it very far because what happens when something goes wrong in your life? - the sense that there must be some benevolent deity behind all this is a bit like American religious thought; when I began to travel to America I started to meet an awful lot of Christians;....... the American faith world contains some of the very finest and most searching of theology and religious thought and practice, and some of the worst; I have experienced the full spectrum; ........ if I wanted to be honest about my own faith journey it has been backwards over the years; I am afraid what slightly began to sow the seeds of doubt was seeing the absolute certainty of religious adherents in America, and some of the harm that that certainty could lead to; I started by thinking there must be many paths to God and went from there to a rather tougher position which is that the universe is basically numbers, and in some sense mathematical and a lottery; if there is a controlling deity he is a bit like a Mafia don who is capable of doing good and charitable things, but also almost takes pleasure in doing malicious and harmful things, sowing the seeds of long-running dissent and problems; that is hard to reconcile with the Christian concept of a loving God; I don't find it helpful either to say that you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus; numerous of my religious friends say that if you are not born again and if Jesus is not your personal friend, then you are not a true Christian; I always remember the words of the Rev. Professor Charles Moule, a most searching theologian, who said he was perfectly sure he had only been born once; .........; people sometimes have asked me whether the fact that my son was killed affects my faith position; it happened in 2001 when he was nineteen and a student here at Cambridge, and he got run over crossing Queens’ Road one night; completely unforeseen and random, but I think that the answer is no, as by then I wouldn't have described myself as a believing Christian; on the other hand, you have to consider the alternatives; a world without any churches or space for religious thought or contemplation, or based only on material values, would be a hell; in a sense, if you believe the specific doctrines of the faith, I think that just the statement it makes about how man should not live by bread alone, is immensely important; music is a part of that because it is useless in a literal sense, you don't have to have music to survive, yet it has always been there; imagining a world without it is impossible, as is a world without faith; even though you might say that religion is an invention of man, I don't think it invalidates its worth; ....... it began to look to me as if the whole edifice of religion was a man-made construct; I do remain hugely sympathetic to the church, its music, its liturgy, its traditions, and, with some caveats, its ministry; on the whole, the Church I was baptised into, is trying to do good in a difficult situation, and is making a statement on behalf of qualities like compassion, forgiveness, charity, that everybody would support; I would be heartbroken if the Church of England closed its doors tomorrow; I hope to be buried in a country churchyard with a funeral service according to the 1662 Prayer Book, and all my favourite pieces of music; I suppose that is wanting it both ways - both the trappings without necessarily subscribing to the doctrine; I think there are quite a lot of people like me; Vaughan Williams was similar in that he had a sense of generalised spirituality which was triggered by things like standing on top of the Malvern Hills and contemplating the beauty of nature, or walking through the west door of a cathedral and being awestruck by the grandeur and mystery of the building, or being inspired by 'Pilgrim's Progress'; I think he would not have called himself a Christian, yet his life was steeped in Christianity at every point; I am like that and my moral compass probably does derive in large part from Christian ethic and teaching; I owe Christianity a huge debt and it is rather ungrateful of me not to believe in it more."

Grannyknot Fri 28-Dec-12 22:21:30

I love this piece mishap and identify with loads of it. Thank you for posting.

wisewoman Fri 28-Dec-12 22:38:04

How wonderful! I must read full interview.

annodomini Fri 28-Dec-12 22:50:42

I, too, identify with a lot of what he says except, of course, that my background was in the Church of Scotland which was, in those days, a largely liberal institution.

annodomini Fri 28-Dec-12 22:57:09

I this context, I think some of you will appreciated this quotation from one of John Mortimer's autobiographical works:

'My unbelief doesn't mean that I could do without churches...

'Even as an unbeliever, I am part of a Christian civilization...Christianity has been responsible for me. The poetry I value, the art that is important to me, have existed in a Christian framework and can't be understood without reference to Christian beliefs, even when they are rejected or used as a cover for more ancient and pagan celebrations. the politics I have adopted come from the Sermon on the Mount by way of Victorian Christian Socialists and preachers in Welsh chapels. For this reason, if for no other, Christianity has to be treasured and learnt; without it we couldn't understand Shakespeare or Milton. Without the Bible, in the form it took before the new translation wrecked it, spoken English is reduced to the meaningless waffle now heard in law courts and the Houses of Parliament.'

Lilygran Fri 28-Dec-12 23:00:08

How unlike the outlook of He Who Must Not Be Called An Aggressive Atheist! Thanks, Mishap.

petallus Fri 28-Dec-12 23:40:55

So much complexity and depth to this kind of thinking.

I can identify with both writers.

What a relief.

Mishap Sat 29-Dec-12 11:41:35

Glad you found it interesting - and many thanks for the Mortimer extract too.

There is something charming about Rutter's honesty and thoughtfulness. I heard him on TV the other day and he said much the same thing, also adding that if he were to pretend to something he does not believe then people would suss him out pretty quickly. The fact that he sets a lot of religious texts and writes a lot of carols leaves him open to these sort of questions all the time.

People sometimes ask me how I can go to the cathedral carol service as my start to Christmas, or take my singing group to a concert in aid of a church when I am an agnostic - but the answer is very much contained in what Rutter is saying - I just wish I had the eloquence to express it so well.

I went to a workshop that he ran a few days after his son was killed - we all expected him to cancel - and he was extraordinarily brave, charming and inspiring. He is certainly a very interesting man.

wisewoman Sat 29-Dec-12 12:38:06

Those of you who are interested in this thread may find "Religion for Atheists" by Alain de Botton interesting. He picks out the good things about religion despite being an atheist himself. I heard him speak at the Edinburgh Book Festival this year and was inspired by his ideas. Petullus it is so good to feel there are others who are interested in depth and complexity! The older I get the less certain I get about pretty much anything except that we should all be kind to one another!

Mishap Sat 29-Dec-12 13:03:01

wisewoman - I can identify with your last sentence!

I think that in some ways we get better at accepting uncertainty as we get older - young people want clear answers to everything but in the end we gradually accept that they may not exist (at least not in our lifetime) - and maybe that this does not matter.

wisewoman Sat 29-Dec-12 13:32:18

Mishap I agree with you about young people wanting certainty. It seems to me that is is certainty that causes problems. If I am certain I am right and you are wrong we can never have the really interesting discussions which lead to new perpectives on both sides. Long live uncertainty and the wisdom that hopefully comes with age.

Nelliemoser Sat 29-Dec-12 13:32:20

Mishap Thanks! I am very glad to have read that, its very interesting and probably my sort of view, but put far more eloquently than I ever could.
Good for JR... Except I wish he wouldn't always give the humming or the ah! ahhing! lines to the Altos"!

Grannyknot Sat 29-Dec-12 13:35:13

wisewoman re kindness, my feelings exactly - see my thread 'In praise of kindness' from a while ago smile and flowers to you.

MiceElf Sat 29-Dec-12 13:51:55

Open minded, searching, humble, a seeker of truth, beauty and goodness, and spiritually aware. And not a trace of the arrogant superiority which is so distasteful in some polemicists. There are many different ways of seeking these ideals and many different ways of describing the world. There are no certainties as Mishap says, but it's good to see respect and kindness when it appears.

wisewoman Sat 29-Dec-12 13:51:58

Hi Grannyknot I went back and had a look. I had actually made a small contribution to the thread. In the last few weeks DH and I have gone through a very difficult time culminating in him having heart surgery. It is the wonderful kindness of family, friends and neighbours that have got us through. Apparently small acts like drawing the curtains and making the house cosy for me coming home from hospital visiting, putting small, easy to heat meals in the fridge, giving me a lift to hospital so I can have a day off driving. All these things kept me sane and more than ever I believe that kindness makes the world go round.

Grannyknot Sat 29-Dec-12 18:23:13

wisewoman you chose the right moniker ... flowers and no wonder you attract the kindnesses you mention. Hope your DH is okay. I agree that it often doesn't take much on the part of the giver, that makes a huge difference to the person on the receiving end.

Joan Sat 29-Dec-12 22:52:04

This is a wonderful thread, the truth of which resonates with me a great deal. I am an atheist with atheist parents, but I was taught Christianity at Sunday School and school, my parents being against forcing their views on their children. We all became agnostics or atheists in the end, because we were brought up, from an early age, to analyse, question and debate.

But I too love the good bits about religion - the beautiful architecture, cool quiet churches to meditate in, music and tradition.

People who are utterly certain about their religious views scare me though. They are the ones Weinberg talks about in his famous quotation:
'....good people tend to do good things, bad people tend to do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion.'

jO5 Sat 29-Dec-12 22:55:27

" I hope to be buried in a country churchyard with a funeral service according to the 1662 Prayer Book, and all my favourite pieces of music; I suppose that is wanting it both ways - both the trappings without necessarily subscribing to the doctrine"

Yes, John Rutter. Make your mind up. hmm

jO5 Sat 29-Dec-12 22:59:12

Quote Joan (if I may) "But I too love the good bits about religion - the beautiful architecture, cool quiet churches to meditate in, music and tradition"

That isn't the religion. Those things haven't got anything to do with the religion involved.

And no-one - definitely no-one - is 100% sure of their religious faith.

wisewoman Sat 29-Dec-12 23:10:55

JO5 how can you say these things have nothing to do with religion? They arose from religion - the beautiful churches the music and the traditions. They may not have anything to do with with personal faith but they certainly have something to do with religion.

crimson Sat 29-Dec-12 23:22:33

And spirituality perhaps?

Joan Sun 30-Dec-12 01:42:38

I don't feel cross with Rutter for wanting it both ways, but I do understand a committed Christian's problem with his views. But I do feel that many many people who appear to be believing Christians, simply like the whole church thing, and happily go along with stories they know, deep down, to be myths.

Even the existence of Jesus is not certain. I think Joshua bar Joseph probably existed as a charismatic young rabbi with rather challenging views who preached along the shores of Galilee, but there is no contemporary Roman literature to confirm his life or death.

The Jesus we read about in the gospels though, would be utterly horrified at the riches of the established Catholic and Anglican churches, and the whole Vatican, at the violent and repressive history, at the money-grubbing televangelists, and at right wing religion everywhere.

He would be pleased at charitable work being done in his name though.

petallus Sun 30-Dec-12 09:46:54

I think the Weinberg quote oversimplifies what is a very complex matter.

jO5 Sun 30-Dec-12 10:39:36

Most beautiful church buildings were built for the glory of the people who built them. Not for the glory of God.

Bags said that on a previous thread. And, thinking about it, I agree with her.

However, it is possible to stand inside a church, even a simple one, and unexpectedly, quite out of the blue, feel the love of God.

jO5 Sun 30-Dec-12 10:51:33

I don't believe truly religious people do any more "bad things" than the rest of us do, as human beings. The atrocities committed in Northern Ireland, for example, were done under the labels of the different religions. That was all it was - labels. Denominations people were born under and which in that country, happened to form the political parties they subscribed too. True religion didn't come into it.

The same can probably be said about many so called "religious" conflicts.