elderly in hospital

Jess - "departure lounge".

Naughty!

We're sorted. She's home and knackered after a whole afternoon in the "discharge lounge" - sounds revolting but better than calling it the departure lounge I guess. Found her wanting the loo but not wanting to ask male nurse. He was fine when you got to talk to him but looked like the sort of guy you'd be wary of bumping into in the pub.
Communication stars again - she had a patch last night. Should last for a week and then GP presc. takes over. Hospital dr obviously wanted GP to pay. Nurse could not convey these simple facts on the phone. Gave completely wrong impression to me and to SIL in two phone calls.
We sang "show me the way to go home" in the car.
At least the cardiologists have done their stuff and given her some relief in the heart dept. Off to double check all prescriptions... anything left off that she was on before... Perils of being on about 15 drugs!

That's awful Jess. Surely she is the only one who can decide if she needs the patches. Be strong and fight her corner for her. (You can do it girl!)

Enjoy that garden.

Sitting here waiting for the cardiology ward to discharge MIL. We are arguing about morphine patches that she has had for last 2 years. They have formed the opinion that she does not need them and that co-codamol is sufficient. I would like to see them cope with arthritis in neck, spine and hands on top of 2 hip replacements that have past their sell by date on just a few co-codamol.
Oh not to mention periodic bad gall stone pain every few days. Tra - la - at least the GPs are helpful. Or will be when she is back in their care.
Sitting in SIL's lovely garden, trying to stay calm. This "discharge " process has been going on for about 2 days now... Still in another 2 hours it will be nearly visiting time and perhaps at that point she might like to discharge herself...
OK - need to do some work and distract myself...

Good point Barrow, we have prison visitors so why not hospital ones ? There are probably lots of old people who have few visitors and perhaps would appreciate a visit. My friend's father is in hospital and she said that she was the only visitor in the ward on one evening. She had a word with other patients so that they were included.

I seem to recall there used to be volunteers who would visit people in hospital to help cheer them up. Does this still happen? If so, couldn't they be asked to look out for any mistreatment. This could also be extended to nursing homes and residential homes, volunteers could visit at any time and if they see anything which shouldn't be happening they could report it to the relevant authorities - who should then do something about it! Not sure how practical this is though!

I am not really sure that it did improve JessM. I could never see beyond the sloppy way of dressing, no caps and hair not pinned up. Admin was done by staff who had progressed through nursing but then it changed to managers who seemed to have little connection with care of people. I think perhaps the early 60s was the time when nursing was a vocation and they really cared about the people they nursed. Medically we have advanced enormously but tests and machines seem to take the place of a friendly face and a cool hand on the brow. One or two of the female nurses started pushing for us to join the union and became quite militant, I didn't like it.

Do you think it improved at all after that date Harrigran? Was there a golden age?

Getting equality may have been great for some women but as a stay at home mum and housewife I did not like having doors swung in my face or not getting offered a seat on a bus. The NHS really went down the pan in the late 60s and early 70s and I found a lot of women who trained at the same time as me left to work in other fields.

Interesting thoughts Judian. I think further up this thread I mentioned recruitment issues. If not, will return to theme later.

I am apalled by all these dreadful personal stories which confirm what we are hearing in the news. I myself am 83 and very much aware that this may be my fate in the not so distant future - though I plan to die at home if I possibly can - or perhaps ANYWHERE but in care! I do hope that Geraldine can find some way of turning all this heartfelt witness into an effective campaign, which I shall certainly support.

I am struck by gkal's mention of the 1970's as the time when things seem to have begun to go wrong. Wikipedia tells me that Matrons were abolished in the NHS in the late 1960s (although apparently they are being reintroduced in some areas now in the NHS, though their roles have changed.)

But also the 60s and 70s were the high time of the women's movement, and I do wonder if in our struggles for equality, we may have sacrificed some of the caring side of our natures, with which women could take pride in the hospitals run by the matrons in the 'old days'. Bending to Matron's rule must have been more satisfying than bending to the rule of the male managers who followed them. Sadly, gains are sometimes balanced by losses.

It's now some time since my last experience of elderly relatives in hospital, but i found the contrast between my uncle's and my aunt's experience very interesting. He was in a urology ward with a lot of other men recovering from bladder or prostate surgery. They were all compos mentis and pretty cheery; my dear uncle enjoyed chatting up the nurses and they loved him. It was a highly sociable ward, perhaps also informed by the personality of the (female) consultant. By contrast, my much loved aunt, already in a care home with vascular dementia was in a geriatric ward (in the same hospital) which was dim and cheerless. She couldn't speak up for herself and I found fluid leaking from a canula that had come loose. No apology when I pointed this out. She wasn't left in her own excrement, so it evidently wasn't as bad as some wards, but why could it not have been at least a more pleasant atmosphere? It was gloomy enough to drag down the spirits of visitors and make you want to get out of there and to get your loved one out asap. Although she was in and out a few times with pneumonia, she never succumbed there and died in her own care home which was indeed a caring environment.

Hello Benina, you have friends on Gransnet. There is always someone to talk to

You'll always find someone here, benina, who will listen and share experiences.
JessM is right though. Expressing our feelings and finding support is wonderful but we can't lose the impetus that was beginning to build up. What's the next step ladies? I feel a bit marginalised because things are organised differently in Scotland - but the same problems of lack of caring staff exist here too.

Oh you poor love. Consider yourself hugged. Can we get some more contributors back on this thread please? More members of Gransnet?
Our age group need to join together to put political pressure on government. We are a very powerful group of voters if we did but exercise that power. Because there are lots of us and we do take the trouble to vote!
Hospitals have been targeted by politicians to improve a number of things in recent years, and sure enough, they have improved them. (MRSA for instance)
In the meantime we need to keep complaining to the hospitals and copying in everyone. They do take complaints very seriously.
Benina - lovely bunch here on Gransnet so don't be a stranger as they say in the states. Just hang around and join in the "last hour" conversations if you are feeling lonely.

Is it MPs or the training hospitals that we should be targetting? It is a bit later and I have been thinking. Though I have not read all the 7 pages I have read enough to know that my relatives' experience of hospitals is not uncommon. Those that are nursing/caring have not been trained to cope with the special and various needs of the elderly. And these are "special" people. Let's face it, "they" are "us" in a few years time. I personally doubt that a higher academic qualification for nursing staff does anything more than boost the status of The Nursing Professional Body. I am sure that there are some in the nursing profession who are compassionate and caring, but that may be a personal attribute rather than training.

So, how do we reach those who organise the training of nurses? Who are they? Who are the administrators who decide? Do any of you know?

That is a beautiful poem Twizzle. And so true. I joined Gransnet just today - because, I don't know, because I was lonely and because I have a beautiful, wonderful grandson 250 miles away. And then I wittered on about books and came across JessM and finished up on this thread. About the elderly in hospital. About my parents-in-law in their 90s, about my father with cancer and my mother with altzeimers. And about their frightening experiences in hospitals. Now I can't stop crying.

Please, gransnet, tell me what I should do to prevent it happening again and again. They are all gone now, but I know and all these people on this site know that this cannot go on. The elderly must be respected and treated with care and knowlege. Love and understanding.

I am hoping to nudge this one back into active status as I think we have lots of new members all the time. I wrote to my MP and had a very rapid reply. He forwarded to minister responsible.
Can I urge you all to complain to hospitals if they are giving poor care (they have to take notice) and copy to your MP and anyone else relevant.

Hi gordonlacey, sorry to hear about your mother.
All I can say is be vocal as you can when you are there. Speak to a member of staff every time you visit and express any concerns.
The kind of care you get in hospital is not the same as you would at home. A good example is drinking. At home you would be coaxing someone to take a few sips of water frequently. In hospital a glass of water is plonked next to you. I think we should be stroppy about "visiting times" if we are concerned about this kind of thing and be there for as much of the time as we can. I am not talking about a gang of people round the bed, doing ritual hospital visiting. I'm talking about one near relative, reading their book and encouraging sips of water etc. In many cultures this is normal.
Keeping people mobile so that they can get to loo on their own is another big one, if at all poss.
If you are not getting satisfaction from ward staff ask to see the clinical/nurse manager on duty - whoever is in charge of nursing that day.
Someone medical told me that to tell if someone is dehydrated, pinch the skin on the back of their hand. If it does not quickly return to flat, then that is a sign of significant dehydration.
Friend of mine's dad was in hospital recently - 92, passed out and broke some neck bones. Fit as a flea up to now. They have managed to get him out of there and a place in a care home near where they live. They could not take him to their house for long string of reasons. So don't despair. There is something about the NHS that pushes us into in a passive, compliant position. Keep active and proactive!

My 90 year old mother was admitted to hospital last night after an agonising few hours on a trolley. She wasn't treated unkindly but everything was so slow. She was very close to the doctor's station and we waited whilst they gossiped, joked and looked at photos on their iphones. Today she has been largely ignored, unable to keep down anything but a few sips of water. A scan scheduled for 3pm was inexplicably cancelled and of course will not be rescheduled over the weekend. I know they are planning to move her to a geriatric ward- a notorious hellhole. Despite a few medical problems she has been remarkably fit for a woman of her age but I fear what so many other contributors have described, that she will deteriorate very quickly in this situation, not least because she is not eating and is, I think, dehydrated.
If we could have anything like the clout that Mumsnet has had with Dave and his cronies, this would be an issue worth fighting for, and not just for our own futures.Our parents generation made huge sacrifices for their country and have overwhelmingly been givers not takers within society. They deserve to be treated with dignity, respect and kindness in their final years,

Yes well Snowdrop - but the question is how to change an entire culture?
Looking up to elders is a wonderful cultural feature where it exists - but centuries of hard work have gone into creating this. Lets face it, we are biologically programmed to find children appealing and to naturally want to protect them. When the chips are down, and the blubber is running out, who do you push out of the igloo. How are you going to ensure that your genes survive and that there is someone to look after you when your teeth drop out?
Why would you want to hang onto the elders - it was because they had wisdom and knowledge that was valued.
And because there was a long tradition of older people in the tribe dinning into the younger ones that it was REALLY IMPORTANT to look after them. And respect them.
And probably the gods would send lightening bolts if they didn't.
In such a rapidly changing world as ours knowledge of elders is bound to be less valuable than it was in hunting/gathering/basic agriculture cultures.
This is not something politicians can do. (lets face it they can't do very much - even the things they are supposed to be in charge of ...)
Telling other people they should stop stereotyping older people or start being nice to them is not going to work.
On the other hand the baby boomer generation is just hitting pensionable age. We are going to be fitter and more vocal I hope.
It is up to us to challenge stereotypes and use our voting power and political clout. We are going to be the most enthusiastic voters and a huge chunk of the electorate.
Talking of challenging stereotypes:
I did enjoy hearing Stirling Moss talking about retiring from professional motor racing in his early 80s. last week on the today programme. I didnt know he was still alive.

Snowdrop.....sadly so agree...votes and finance

SURELY should be the responsibilty of those making money behind the scenes from Gransnet....to promote our opinions, when of a serious nature such as this, and also of a grave current concern nationally....We are of the generation having to deal with this and YES we have to be heard .........oh I could go on

I'm sorry to sound defeatist, and I'm sure I'm going to be shot down in flames, but what this thread should really be trying to do is change society's view on the elderly, ageing, old age call it what you will. Yes the care of old people by most NHS hospitals and in some nursing homes is appalling, inhumane in some cases. I should know I've witnessed it and it reduced me to tears, not only of sorrow but of frustration as no-one would listen to me.
Yes, writing to one's MP is a start as is writing to the Patients Association and the Care and Quality Commission. But think for a minute about the thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of old people who aren't in hospital, aren't ill but are still ignored by society in general - as if they don't exist. The fact of the matter is that they are considered - wrongly - to be an embarrasement . Looking at them can be likened to looking one's own mortality in the eye and that can be uncomfortable. Much easier to ignore it and hope it'll go away.
Wrong, wrong, wrong I know but it'll take a damn sight more than rattling a few politician's cages to change things. After all, they're only after one thing and that's votes (oh, and and expenses of course!)
There are some societies in the world where old people are highly regarded and treated with respect as their life experiences are valued. We would do well to learn from them.
Time to get off my soapbox I think and wait for the brick bats