babies in restaurants

Can I just say to the 2 grannies who have lost sons-in-law, I am truly sorry, I cannot begin to imagine what you have been through. Your own grief must be compounded by seeing your DD and grandchildren suffering so much. Alifen I presume that you have not suffered such a loss or you would not have been so insensitive. Only those who have suffered a similar loss can really understand what it is like. I would never be judgemental about how someone deals with that situation. What is that saying about you must walk a mile in someone's shoes.......
Oh...and Stansgran, I would have felt the same as you. They should have taken him out. In Italy, yes you see lots of families in restaurants but I never experienced a nuisance.....they were either asleep in a buggy or taken outside. Amazingly considerate seeing how inconsiderate they are on the roads....oops sorry...that was another thread that I was contributing to!

Okay, I admit it; alifen caught me on the raw this morning. She 'attacked' my cub - and as every parent knows; THAT IS NOT ALLOWED! So, whether alifen is a 'Troll' or not, my mate (always true to you Baggy) is quite correct in saying the equivalent of, 'forgive, forget and move on'. As I think I said previously, there is always a context and we don't always have the full facts at our fingertips when we enter into discussions. (For instance, alifen doesn't know what a treasure my daughter is - how could she?)

(It is quite lovely though that so many of you sprang into action here - what a powerful bunch of women you all are. I am very fond of my GN community.)

Biker.....yes you are right of course.....Trolls are best ignored, they are like the bullies in the playground that your Mother always told you to ignore. Trouble is I now look back at them and feel that if only I had had the courage to wallop one of them instead of suffering in silence I would have at least had the satisfaction of someone else knowing how I felt. But hey ho, I was brought up to have good manners and not cause a fuss...so heres to you all, but make mine a because I'm trying to be good!

Hi all.....there used to be and still is this kind of "goings on" on another site (begining with e) lol.....I never knew what trolls were (apart from them little creatures with long coloured hair)..! Personaly I find the best way to treat these "tolls" is after having read the thread..if it seems a tad to ermm lets say "harsh" then I find the best thing is to completly ignore! if possible..but of course by raising the hackles" and replying then we fall into their hands..but some times we just read something and Grrrrrrrrrr.......we feel that we must reply and defend... I think gransnet has so far been pretty good as far as debates go..as we are (well most of us) mature enough to be able to have a debate in an informal and courteous manner without coming to blows...(wouldnt like to argue with anyone from here after a few glasses of lol lol... (joking) of course...

Well Baggy m'dear Trolls seem able to turn a thread that starts from someone simply asking if they are being unreasonable to ask if its a tad ill mannered for people to take an apparently unhappy toddler to a 'michelin' restuarant in the evening where it is likely that some diners will be having quite a grown-up meal, into an unpleasant rant about how families cope with the life shattering tragedy of the death of a husband and father !!!!
Banging on about good manners in such a way is bordering on the hypocritical. I was always taught that good manners was much more about putting others at ease rather than strict etiquette.

hildaw, I think you could be onto something there. And I need to jot down what I learn from all you guys peeps about How To Spot A Troll!

Think I've just made a mental note not to read anything posted with the name 'Alifen' attached to it

Alifen,.. Why do you assume that GAs grandson being involved year after year in memorials for his Daddy is involving him in 'emotional misery'
Memorials are not neccessarily 'misery' !!
Giving that baby a continued link with the memory of his Dad is valuable and important,.. THAT is remembering him in a positive way ! That IS positive parenting !

You also asked if the baby was taken to the funeral ? Why did you ask that ? because you think he should - or should not have been ? Personally, I think a child should go to the funeral of a close relative,..yes, even a baby. People tend to leave children out because THEY cannot handle the child going, with little thought to what is really best for the child.

Baggy - I don't think Alifen got the wrong end of the stick at all - I think GAs post was clear and there was nothing to 'guess' at.
Alifen can only see negatives in what GAs daughter has done when there are absolute healthy positives in there for that child - and she is not doing it just for her own benefit at all !

alifen - I don't remember seeing any posts from you before. Do you contribute often to the forum?
If you don't, what made you choose this thread, and what made you begin with such a vehement condemnation of grannyactivist and her bereaved daughter and orphaned grandchild - ? You must not be surprised if you are taken for a troll, throwing a hand-grenade into a discussion to see what collateral damage you can do.

Sorry Alifen I am definitely with GA on this one. Each situation is different, and I think there is a big difference between just giving your opinion and being judgemental.
Not everyone has a babysitter they can trust, and in todays times, I would be very wary of leaving a child with anyone other than a family member. Things have moved on somewhat from when my children were babies, and I would never have dreamt of taking them out with me for a meal or a drink, unless of course on holiday (which the OP mentions). However, all this said, there is a big difference between taking a child to a family "buzzing" restaurant (say Italian) than a Michelin star establishment.

Dearest GA, at the risk of losing your friendship forever may I say please don't get too cross with Alifen. Similar thoughts had gone through my mind but, because I 'know' you a little, I was able to dismiss them. The thing is, someone coming cold to this thread could easily pick up the wrong end of the stick simply because it's difficult to guess all the nuances just from the printed word. You know this and you are a sweet, kind person. "Forgive, forget, conclude and be agreed" that a screaming baby in a restaurant (or anywhere) can spoil an evening meal. It's highly unlikely to be a breast-fed baby because its mum will just stick a nipple in its mouth.

Wow - don't hold back will you Alifen? "pandering to every whim of the bereaved mother" is a sweeping generalisation based on, what? The fact that my (breastfeeding) daughter kept her 17 week old son with her as she attended her husband's repatriation, funeral and memorial services? Who do you think baby (reminder, breastfed baby) should have been left with?
As for your assertion that baby's presence was, "in an effort to compensate for the sad early death of the husband/father" - well, as a statement it doesn't exactly demonstrate your understanding, sensitivity or compassion about such matters.

It's evident that you think it's a sad state of affairs that all children/grandchildren were not raised as well as yours obviously were, but my daughter is far too old to re-train now.

These are not "normal" circumstances, yes...but surely common sense should STILL come into play instead of pandering to every whim of the bereaved mother in an effort to compensate for the sad early death of the husband/father?
She wants to "involve" the young child in every occasion etc etc...this is nOT for the childs sake..it is for her benefit and comfort and that of course is understandable!

"Will link him to his daddy at a later date to see himself at these memorials?"..was he taken to the funeral as well?

People of course do not think straight in these circumstances! But to involve a young child in the emotional misery year after year, is not good parenting I think!
Daddy can be remembered in a happy positive way, surely?

But the main topic is about selfish people allowing their children/grandchildren to spoil meals etc for other diners /shoppers etc.

There is NO excuse for this.
It is ignorant and totally preventable.
But sadly happens all the time and is on the increase!

People come out to enjoy a meal or some shopping time...NOT to put up with the noise and bad behaviour of children that some people think is acceptable!

They pay good money to eat out.

My sons were never taken out for evening meals..it really was not the "norm" then.
They had a set and sensible bedtime and I always had a regulare and capable babysitter.
We also appreciated time away from the children..AND others children too...!

During the day, we often had compliments on the good behaviour of our children!

Surely it is simply consideration for others, good social manners and pride in ones own greandchildren?

I would hate to think that anyone was thinking my grandson was an out of control brat with disinterested Grandparents!!!

Sorry Stansgran, was just checking! I shouldn't have doubted it

Well helsheaMainly because of their conversation with the staff on arrival-a small restaurant -daughter says mum and dad -the conversation was public.. i have absolutely no objection to families enjoying themselves- the Italian extended family always looks brilliant and someone walks off with a fractious child in my experience of continental evening meals-i have two French grandchildren and have eaten out many times but they tend to have their main meal at midday and a lighter evening meal is better for the digestion but in this case it was as I said and i too was celebrating something

I don't think taking babies to restaurants is much of a problem, providing there is a cosy buggy or somewhere else to sleep and, if they wake up, an adult deals immediately with feeding, nappy change or whatever is required. Toddlers and slightly older children can also be a joy in a restaurants, but not late in the evening because they get tired, bored and whiny. The night before my family flew back to New Zealand, we took them to our favourite restaurant about 6.30 or 7.00 in the evening. Not only did the three-year-old girl and two-year-old boy yum up their dinners – a shared appetizer, half-size portions of an adult main course and, then, ice cream – but he flirted outrageously with the waitresses. When the chef came to talk to us, both children thanked him for their "lovely tea".

When I was on holiday in Sicily many years ago it was very noticeable that multi-generational families would go out for a meal together in the evenings, often quite late, and I never saw any bad behaviour from the children, but of course everyone, includiing the tinies, would have had a couple of hours siesta in the afternoon, which would make all the difference.
I agree that not knowing all the circumstances of this particular incident means we can't be sure how much at fault the adults were, but a posh restaurant does not seem the ideal place to take small children, even well-behaved ones, as the expensive food would be wasted on them!

Hmmmm, all I know is that I would not have enjoyed an evening meal in a posh restaurant with either of my darling daughters until they were at least able to offer decent conversation between courses!

Stansgran? How do you know they were the grandparents, how do you know that it was their first grandchild? Perhaps they were celebrating something, and were on holiday without anyone to babysit? Whatever the facts, I think you presume too much!

Perhaps they do not usually take the child out that late - but they were on holiday ! How late was it ?

I don't enjoy hearing toddlers screaming in restaurants but without knowing the reasons why this family had a toddler out at whatever time it was - I wouldn't judge them as selfish.

When we are on holiday with children we always have our main meal at lunchtime and the evening meal is something simple. Fractious children do not help adults digestion so best avoided. I appreciate there are times when it I totally unavoidable then best try for 5.30 to 6pm so that we are finished before evening diners arrive.

I do agree that bringing babies to dinner in a restaurant is firstly wrong for the baby or toddler who really ought to be in bed and probably uncomfortable for the other diners. I do think though that after the tragic circumstances of Madeline's disappearance parents are nervous of leaving their children while on holiday with babysitting services. But of course you are right when we go out with grandchildren we all take it in turns to take the child into the garden (if there is one). My preference is children in bed at an appropriate time that allows them to get sufficient rest not to be tetchy the next day and gives parents and grandparents much needed child free time

I agree mainly with the fact that very young children should not be in restaurants or pubs after a certain time, but also realise that in some circumstances this would mean that the parents, especially the mother would never go out. I for one, if I moved to a new area and knew no one I would definitely not want to leave my child with a babysitter who I hardly knew. However surely it is up to the restaurants themselves to set the rules. If a restaurant has a policy then everyone is quite clear. I know that Ember Inns do not allow any children under (I think the age is) the age of 14. Also lot's of public houses have seperate family rooms. To be honest I don't think a Michelin Star quality restaurant should be allowing children in under a certain age, after a certain time. But if they have no policy about this, and I wanted a quiet lovely meal I would not go again.

A year or so ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly with what others on this thread have said, but there are some circumstances when 'normal rules' don't apply. Following the death of her husband last year my daughter has had to do many things and go to many places that otherwise she wouldn't have done. For the most part I have accompanied her and have often been able to babysit my grandson. However, my daughter feels very strongly that her baby son should be as involved as possible in things such as memorials and tributes to his late father.* This has often entailed getting back to hotels in a state of exhaustion and eating in either the hotel or a local restaurant before, finally and with great relief, getting the little one to bed. Yes, the baby has been fractious sometimes and we have endured the tutting and stares of other diners, but under the circumstances it would have been cruel to send my daughter to eat alone when she was emotionally labile; we just managed each situation as best we could.

* My daughter believes that photo's of baby at memorials etc. are a way of linking him to his daddy in the future and are kept in his 'memory box'.

I agree. Babies that age are most difficult to keep quiet and do get upset when they are tired. Best to in out for lunch or an early evening meal.