Cut out of their lives

Butter Your final paragraph makes perfect sense. Good relationships really are about striking the right balance. Just moments ago, I received a text from son number 3...he's to phone tonight for a long chat. I've been hoping for that call for ten days now. I kept 'mum' and allowed him the space to pick and choose the best time for five minutes chat about this, that and the other...and lo and behold, my patience has been rewarded.

B, Jess and when. I have found your posts very insightful.

I was a very over-protective mother, which became particularly strong during the teenage years when my sons were clearly, and rightly, branching out and finding their own way in the world. The more I wanted to know, the more they stepped back, valuing their privacy.

My husband was sent to a boarding school at 7, and in effect that's when he considers he 'left home'. He didn't leave the boarding environment until 18. This resulted in him becoming a somewhat insular and private man, particularly in regard to his mother, who over-compensated during his holidays at home, with her 'neediness' and intense fluttering around him.

I remember one evening very clearly, when J. told me, most seriously, to 'back-off' from wanting to be over-involved in my sons' lives. It was just the wake-up call I needed.

Finding the right balance in the adult-to-adult relationship depends on so many variables, but I can thank J. for sign-posting a path to take that has now reaped enormous benefits. I still fall foul in over-stepping their boundaries at times, but on the whole hope I've developed a way with them that suits us all.

Annobel yes that's it. Thank goodness you have your grand-daughter in your life. It's that ability to look into the future and weigh up the possible consequences if you vent your feelings and alienate them - not that it's a problem for the one who has custody of the child - they seem to be able to say whatever and know the prize will be plucked away if we don't keep quiet (as they see it). What a powerful position to be in, and thank heavens so many don't abuse that power. There are so many reasonable grandparents who don't play power games and want to be supportive, but still get such awful treatment regarding their grandchildren.

When my 20-year-old son came home with a divorced woman with two children, I had to bite my tongue and reserve my reservations (if you see what I mean). I knew she was 'mad, bad and dangerous to know' and that he was impressionable, but also knew that if I expressed an opinion I could lose him. Of course it all came apart eventually but not before my beautiful grand-daughter arrived on the scene and for that I am profoundly grateful. He is now happily married with two more lovely children; my first GD is part of the family and semi-detached from her mother. Her dad is taking her to a pop concert tomorrow night - he won't half stand out among all those youngsters! If I had not held my tongue 21 years ago, would this be happening now? I think not.

You've just described my own situation Nanban. When my ex-DIL came on the scene, there was an unspoken commitment to support my son is the relationship and to accommodate the alien behaviour she brought with her, such as bragging how much she was spending on the next acquisition like a sports car, extension for a jacuzzi, games room, wine cellar, private schooling for grandson - all bankrolled by my son, who was also supporting her 4 other children. Whenever he said 'no' she became abusive and drunk and she would seek me out to complain about him - he's never here, he's under my feet, he's spent all our money, he won't give me any money. She brought home 9 or 10 pedigree dogs that cost a fortune, and then got rid of them when they grew up, always without agreement by the family and done when they were at work or school. Nothing was her responsibility. By empathising with her and trying to be supportive, she interpreted that as condoning her behaviour and she just got worse - I think she set out to see just how much she could get away with before she moved on to her next victim (there have been three men in the last year who have complained about her).

How difficult to try and keep things on a level when children are involved, because any hint of disapproval resulted in grandson not being available, and she used him as a bargaining tool and a weapon throughout the marriage and after. We would capitulate to avoid denial of access.

If I had challenged her and rejected her behaviour, I would have seen less of my grandson, and I spent years feeling that my integrity was never intact when dealing with her. Just once I said that I didn't like what she was doing in denying my son access to his boy and she put the phone down on me, then sent a series of abusive texts. I apologised, though it stuck in my throat, and gradually gained access again - during this time, my son wasn't allowed to see him at all.

I'm not sure there is any reasoning with with sort of person. All her other children have no contact with their paternal grandparents - 2 sets. As Bags has eloquently said, you don't intervene where you don't have permission, so we just have to accept the boundaries imposed on us, or have nothing to do with them. My son was a victim of her abuse and we were helpless to change things as long as he gambled on staying in the marriage for the sake of his son. Thanks goodness things have moved on now, and my grandson is having more say as each month goes by, so he sees lots of his dad now. (I still refrain from telling her what I think - she would start all over again).

Isn't it fantastic that people are really talking on this subject and maybe putting things into words for the first time. It will sound like - she's a fine one to talk - and maybe that's what got me into this mess - but I realise now that if we had spoken out when we knew something wasn't right - before the advent of DiL we were a very talking family but felt that we should behave differently as a courtesy to her, we bit our tongues, and watched our words/actions. It wasn't a plan, it just crept up on us. If you have concerns, reservations about how someone is or may react, why not say so and clear the air. You never know, you may be worrying needlessly, or if you weren't it would give you the chance to see how the other thinks and feels. Let the light in.

Parenting is the most difficult job and there is no rule book. It takes years to learn, and then just when you're getting the hang of it, you have to unlearn it for your grown up children.

Your last sentence says it all Bags. People can harbour resentment that builds up and up, and if it isn't dealt with it becomes too big to deal with any more. You can impose your own boundaries and if they are not the same as hers, she will need to come to terms with them.

Some families can be very open with each other and others cannot stand the slightest intrusion. We are all different.

I had dinner with my prospective sister-in-law the other day and she commented 'it's taken me some time to get used to your family because you all treat each other so respectfully, whereas my family go off like rockets at each other all the time. I've learned from your brother how to spot when I'm not being treated respectfully so I can address it before it builds up.' She was talking about things like her adult son and daughter not clearing up after themselves, taking for granted that she will drop everything and come to the rescue if they miss a bus or mess up their finances, or them assuming she will accommodate a moody strop that makes the atmosphere really tense.

I think we are a close family and my children confide in me, but the only time I will ask something private and personal is if they give me permission, or initiate such a conversation. They're adults, and I remember dealing with difficult situations myself at their age and not sharing that with my mother. I always made sure the children saw plenty of their grandparents, and if they were getting on my nerves, I would ensure the children kept them busy, so they left me alone.

When family members are in some sort of difficulty, it's natural for a mother to want to help them, and there's a fine line to keep. Intrusion and pestering isn't helpful but genuine concern and a willingness to assist is. I try to help out in as unobtrusive a way as possible, but if it's something that can't be done quietly, I'm the first to describe myself as 'interfering' so they have permission to level that at me and I'll back off. My SIL delights in calling me 'the dragon' and so far it's affectionate and always done with an arm round my shoulder, but I'm always slightly on my guard in case that line is crossed.

Thank you, Bags. I totally agree with what you say about children owing their parents nothing beyond gratitude etc. I too value immensely the relationships I have with mine, even more so when I read of people's sorrow on this thread.

A heartfelt post bags. I too had an over-concerned mother in adulthood and it felt burdensome.
As someone who has also been through rocky patches with sons i still find that I am finding my way through the challenges of being a mother to adults. The impulse to protect them does not go away. It seems to be programmed in.
But it obviously has to be controlled as they are not 3 yrs old any more. And it is also easy to forget that even if they are grown men, they still want their mums to give them a hug and tell them you love them. It is very hard to get the behaviour right as far as they are concerned. In some ways the 6 months I spent looking after DS2 when he was having chemo were easy - I could just slot into conventional mum role. (except worrying was not allowed!)
And managing my own emotions is the other challenge, not helped by the fact that they are both on the other side of the planet. Do they remember my birthday? - sometimes. Wish you all a tranquil Sunday.

I would like to tell of my experience from 'the other side'. I have put off doing this several times because it is so difficult. Please bear that in mind throughout.

I have not cut myself off from my mother but I have stepped back. This is because at various stressful times of my life her 'interest' and 'concern' have struck me as being inquisitive and impertinent — nosy, if I don't put too fine a point on it. If I were to pester and interrogate her in the same way she would be appalled, and rightly so. I don't think she understands that.

Yes, it did feel like pestering. When your mother has phoned you to talk about your prospective house move that has gone awry and you are stressed with trying to sort it out and you tell her that you don't want to talk about it and yet she still keeps asking (yes, impertinent) questions, it is pestering. After a few of those calls, I stopped answering the phone when it was her, unless I was feeling particularly strong and able to withstand the bombardment. It's very difficult to tell your mother politely to mind her own bloody business! And that no, asking impertiment questions is not "showing concern" but being nosy.

It's not as simple as that of course. That is only one aspect of our relationship, but it showed me that, even by my late forties, she felt she had a right to know my "business". She did not, even if I was getting it all wrong. I wasn't but that's beside the point. It's my life and she is only entitled to those parts that I wish to share with her, just like everyone else. That may sound harsh, but it is what she taught us: she is very private and reserved about her own affairs but wants to know everybody else's business as if she had some ownership of it because we are her kids.

No.

All my life since I had kids I've been telling myself: children owe their parents nothing beyond gratitude for a good upbringing and respect for them as people. Anything else is a bonus. With my daughters, this seems to have paid off. I value beyond almost anything else the mutual trust and respect there is between us.

I am not suggesting that this is anyone else's experience. I just thought it might help some of you to see that over-concern can engender resentment. I wish you all well and I wish you all healthy and happy relationships with your grown up children.

Green - your last comment is quite insightful - wonder if I am coming across like this (especially the controlling and needy) hence the lack of communication.

I've just picked up on this latest thread - everyone says, you have a lovely life to be getting on with, let it go, one person used the term 'closure' - if only it were that easy dearmotherofgod I would have done that ages ago. People mean it for the best, are simply trying to be a comfort and give the only advice they can, but hacking off an arm would be easier.

I would say, enjoy the moments - like watching the fox family playing in the field on a lovely sunny evening, and hopefully the sad times will space out more. Doing the impossible, is of course impossible. You are such a nice lot.

I've been out all day, and have just logged on. What lovely supportive and sensitive posts, nightowl, nanachrissy and soop. At present I'm trying to step back a bit and not keep texting or expecting texts to come in. When the 'fearfulness' floats over me, I'm doing my best to ignore it. I realise that I was coming over as 'needy', and possibly (definitely?) maybe controlling?

nanachrissy If the body is suffering then it needs help to repair itself and others can see where the problem lies. Because the mind is within no one can see the source of the pain. My bouts of depression rob me of confidence and tranquility, and when they strike, are the most debilitating episodes with which I'm forced to do battle. ((hugs))

Depression is very hard on everyone around. I suffered when I was first married 45 years ago and took two overdoses of tranquilisers. When I recovered I swore to myself that I would never allow it to happen again, and I have managed to fight it fairly successfully. My daughter takes anti-depressants all the time, which worries me, but she has to function.
Life is tricky isn't it?

Thank you nanachrissy. I should have added, my son is thankfully in a much better place now, although he suffers from recurrent depression and at those times I find myself in the grip of that fear again. But on the whole he is happy and when depressed at least he now wants to come through it. I'm glad to hear it sounds similar for green's son

green & nightowl

greenmossgiel I don't know the details of your son's story, I think perhaps I wasn't a member of gransnet when you spoke about it, but I fully understand your feelings. I have been through a similar experience with my elder son who seemed to be hell bent on self-destruction from the age of 16. I have done things I could never imagine myself doing - trying many times to physically prevent him leaving the house in all sorts of ways. I also knew that my son 'wouldn't have a life to live' if he carried on that way. It was a truly terrifying time and it does leave a legacy of fear that is hard to let go. I agree with you that it can become almost an obsession. I can't offer any words of wisdom but just wanted to let you know that you are not alone (((hugs)))

nanachrissy, I know what you mean. The thing is, my son wasn't going to have a life to live, if he carried as he was. That's why I've been so afraid, and it's been hard to let that go.

green Bags made me realise that my children are adults and I have to let them live their lives. It's not always easy though. Be kind to yourself and let it go ((hugs))

soop, thank you. That wee boy will be 2-years-old in 2 week's time - and he's my great-grandson. He's now a bonny, blond, curly-headed wee boy!
nanachrissy, I think you're right. I've actually been giving a lot of thought to my own behaviour regarding this and recognise that I've probably been overwhelmingly protective since then. It's been a case of him being the first thing I think of when I wake up - and of course, that can be during the night, so I don't get back to sleep easily. It's not doing him any good, and certainly isn't doing me any good.

green maybe he feels a bit embarrassed that you think he might make the same mistake again. You are just being his mum, nothing wrong with that!

green have been looking at your photos. I can feel the love as you hold your baby grandchild. A picture speaks a thousand words.

SJP For many years I received birthday cards from my 2xDSs signed by my DD (she even tried to disguise the writing) as they always forgot the date.On one occassion a Mothers day card arrived for my birthday from DS2,they still forget important dates but now at least they have partners who have a list of birthdays and anniversaries so don't give up boys don't realise how important these things are to us mums.*green*there is no way you are being silly just a lovely caring mum who like me could sometimes do with that extra phonecall.((hugs))

Bless you soop!