Cut out of their lives

Hurray!! grannisu isn't it amazing how things can change? How wonderful. I'm absolutely delighted for you and your son. I do get the impression a lot of family solicitors are advising on damage limitation lately.

In court in January, ex-DIL's solicitor used the phrase 'against my strongest advice' in court, when speaking of her demands and behaviour towards my son. There are some helpful people out there who understand what is happening with dads being distanced from their beloved children, thank goodness!

Let's keep everything crossed that some improvements will happen now

Just out of the blue my son has come round to say he has spent 2 hrs this morning with his son at the home of a mutual friend. to say I am astounded is an understatement! Apparently he heard late yesterday from DIL solicitors of this arrangment. The court date is in 9 days and she recently changed solicitor firms cos she fell out with her original one. Can this have anything to do with this sudden change around? So pleased for my son apparently his little boy (aged 2) had not forgotten him despite not seeing him since New Years. He said "thats my daddy" over and over.
Trying not to get too hopeful but its a first small step and a lovely one

Nanban is there any way of getting news about the children by asking for school photos and about progress from the other grandparents? I kept in touch with the other grandmother, who was sympathetic but wouldn't challenge her daughter - 'you know what she's like - she won't listen to me.' However, she did give me bits of news and would always take in letters and books for my grandson, which I was sure she would pass on directly to my grandson, when ex-DIL was likely to shove them in the bin out of spite.

Granchildren only exist because of their grandparents - how come parents fail to see that.

Sadly for us there is no divorce or separation pending - at least we guess not - and any legislation would pass us, and so many more adrift grandparents/granchildren, by, so even if it came about - which I doubt - it could not be enough. There are no votes to be earned here.

All the above completely useless - so much for the Children's Minister wanting his reply to be helpful.

This is where I found the info he was referring to:

https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/publicationDetail/Page1/CM-8273

No it's not, it's this - sorry

tinyurl.com/fjrresponse

The website given in Tim Loughton's letter contains a mistake - it's this one:

tinyurl.com/fjrrresponse

Letter from Tim Loughton MP, Children's minister.

I've just received a further reply from my MP, Paul Goggins, in response to my letter about Grandparents being incorporated into their grandchildren's lives, during and after separation of parents.

The letter is the usual type of lip-service response, but includes this:-

'............the Review looked at the issue of children's contact with their grandparents and also emphasised the importance which grandparents can have in children's lives.

The Government published its response to the Review on 6 February, setting out how we intend to respond to the recommendations made. In that response, we committed to ensure that the importance of an ongoing relationship with grandparents will be fully reflected in the process for making Parenting Agreements and in bespoke information classes for separating parents. It is our intention that parents will be encouraged to give real consideration to the importance of grandparents in their children's lives as part of the dispute resolution process, and supported in reaching agreements that take account of this.

Details of the Government's proposals in this area can be found in the response to the Family Justice Review at tinyurl.com/firresponse

I am grateful for Ms M (me) raising this issue with you, and hope that she will find this reply helpful.'

Lovely ladies - it's nice to know there are good people but then we have all stood in the same devastating place and people who haven't simply have no ability to empathise.

grannisu and nanban things really do turn on a sixpence and you just never know what is round the corner. Things suddenly freed up for my son a couple of weeks ago, when the next court date was imminent and ex-DIL must have realised she had to show that she had made some sort of effort - perhaps it was her solicitor who was the catalyst - we will never know.

It's always worthwhile trying something new to see if that might work. Sending a friendly letter or card, a small gift with a card to say 'I am thinking about you', or an invitation to meet for a coffee - anything - it only needs one thing to have some effect. I can't tell you many times I have felt like murdering someone, and have gritted my teeth and pretended everything is fine with me, because if I had indicated otherwise she would have seized on it as a reason to deny contact yet again.

I know things might get difficult again, but have confidence in my grandson's wish to see his daddy - at one point when she was taunting my son before he left, she said to grandson 'who do you want to live with, me or him?' and he said 'daddy.' I can never forgive her for doing that to a child, and it serves her right that she got that answer. As a mother, I would have been devastated to hear that reply. I doubt she remembered - she was drunk at the time!

Anyway, keep posting and you will get lots of love and support on here, with some wise words for good measure

nanban. I have been reading some of your thread and your story is so familiar. your DIL seems to have had the same traits as mine. (rushed wedding , various splits etc)
I dont know what to say to you except hang in there with us all. We dont have the solution but we are a listening ear. We support each other.

This thread is so sad, but at the same time there is always hope. Children do grow up and can eventually make choices for themselves I know, but it's hard for grandparents to miss that precious time watching them grow and develop.

Carol. I guess the message that comes through is that things do not remain the same as they are. Situations do evolve and change however unlikely that might seem at any one moment in time. Your story is witness to that. Also as you mention its important to maintain contact even if its just sending occasional gifts.
We as grandparents must also take care of ourselves and to an extent get on with our own lives. However hard that might be at times.
Thanks all for your words of encouragement I will share how things go on.

We have sent letters, parcels, messages to my son/DiL/grandchildren and have had absolutely nothing back now for 2 years - for all we know our lovely things could be sat in some post office somewhere waiting to be claimed. My son has made no facebook/twitter messages for many weeks now and we are so very anxious to know if he is at least okay so have approached her relatives - the only ones who might be able to get information - what did he say 'he doesn't want to be an informant' although of course having every sympathy etc. We have approached some of people we know are his facebook friends to let us know anything and would you believe, exactly the same response. I am in a place now when I so want something devastating to happen to some of these people so they can have the least clue of what we feel - they are all so very smug.

Hi grannisu yes, I would use whatever means at hand to keep contact. My son and I, and occasionally my daughters and other son, would keep sending texts, cards, letters, books, DVDs and anything we could think of just to keep those fragile links going when ex-DIL denied contact full stop. Don't say anything emotive that will get her back up, just express love and interest and make comments that show you understand what your grandchild might be doing, or interested in, at this age.

My grandson was 12 a couple of weeks ago, and he is starting to assert his own wishes, so I can see how this child you refer to has expressed a wish to meet his grandparents. There is indeed always hope!

The astonishing thing is that, my experience of ex-DIL was that she was cruel and hell bent on revenge against my son, yet here we are having contact with grandson again, and he now has more appropriate information so he knows how hard we have tried to see him - she can't undermine this because he has heard it from us, not her.

Carol. I have just read the threads in "denied contact" as you suggested. Its amazing story after story just like mine. Yours especially. I am hoping that the recent press coverage on Fathers contact and the possible change in the law will make judges and CAFCAs mindful of the likely change of thinking.
By the way the only way of contacting my DIL and grandson is that I have her mothers address. Would you continue use this as a method to get gifts and cards to my grandson?
As an aside I have a friend who lost contact with her grandson when he was 2yrs due to her son splitting with his partner. My friend was not allowed to see her grandson although she always sent him birthday and xmas gifts. When the boy was 12 yrs he wanted to meet with his paternal grandparents (much to the horror of his mother) he did so and gradually established a relationship. He is now 18 and in constant contact with his grandma. So I guess there is always hope.

Maniac I'm sorry to hear your bad news. Is there more to come now this court date has come and gone? Anyone telling lies must surely have to prove what they are saying? The judge in my son's case last Monday was very annoyed about ex-DIL's behaviour, and saw evidence of what she had been saying on Facebook (we had a file full of her rubbish). Will Cafcass get involved?

Carol thanks for link to Mail article.I will pass it on to my son.maybe it will give him hope.
grannisu I so hope your son has a positive outcome.
My son's court application did not.The judge took all my DIL's lies and allegations as truth.Even my son's barrister and solicitor were astounded at the judge's attitude.
But surely all the recent publicity must cause judges to take account of the false accusations and parental alienation of malicious mothers. We must continue to hope so.
My thoughts are with you.
love and hugs.

Blimey! I think she is the other twin separated at birth from my ex-DIL!!

Read those threads and you will see how things progressed grannisu. My son has just got his decree nisi on Monday, and the judge told him to draft his own access requirements, commenting in court that parental alienation is a heinous way to behave. If ex-DIL contests anything on the access document, she has to go to mediation and/or Caffcass, and my son will be heading for a request for full custody, as she has been emotionally cruel to my grandson by telling so many horrendous lies about his dad e.g. he is making us go and live in a homeless hostel, he doesn't love you any more etc. In fact, his dad has signed over the house and equity so she can purchase another, smaller house outright. All he wants is to see his son, which is happening regularly now (early days - she won't rest without sabotaging it).

Carol. Thanks so much for your support. The alcoholic allegation is a complete fabrication. He has had a liver function test which has come back OK. He just drinks socially (lightly) like most of the rest of us and these days hardly drinks at all. Once she saw that my son was going for a divorce she told him either he got back with her or she would make sure he never saw his son again. Unbeleiveable cruelty! Since then she has been coming up with all sorts of allegations. She apparently wont let us see our grandson as we do not agree with her that our son is an alcoholic! She has to be in control and cannot tolerate that anyone should disagree with her, most people are wary of her and her parents are clearly scared of her unstable personality and mood swings and subsequent anger outbursts.
They tried mediation but she was disruptive and didnt turn up and then said she would only go if my son attended AA meetings. The whole thing is ridiculous. I and other mutual friends think my DIL has a mental problem or disorder as she really isnt behaving "normally" privately I wonder if she has borderline personality disorder.
His contact order request is in and this is what this hearing is about. His solicitor put it in in January and he has had to wait till the end of March for it. I am not sure of the proceedure of the hearing and the interim order.

grannisu take heart and keep pushing ahead. Your son can prove if he has an alcohol problem or not by offering to have random breath tests. Judges don't look lightly on fabricated allegations, as I have found just recently (look at Denied Contact in Relationships thread, too). This will backfire on her. Getting drunk at a party or when everyone comes round for a BBQ and suchlike doesn't constitute an alcohol problem - it's got to fit more relevant criteria than that.

Your story could have been written by me - we had a terrible year and are beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, not without some harrowing times when I was worried about my son's ability to avoid a breakdown.

He needs to get a contact order request in, and make it clear he is happy to go to mediation and/or Cafcass assessment.

Re: the alcohol allegation - one of the last jobs I did before retiring was an assessment for a social services dept on a man with alcohol problems - he still had supervised access and the family centre where he attended were against him all the way because they believed ex's allegations that he had continued drinking. I suggested random testing and cold calling to check out the ex's allegations and they never once found him with alcohol in his system, even when they called at high risk times. There's always a way round these things - this man continued to have access because he showed he was in control and would be unlikely to drink when he had his children with him.

Carol, Thanks for the article. Very interesting reading and so true to my sons story. My DIL is accusing my son of alcoholism which is wildly untrue. Also she has made lots of other wildly fabricated tales about him which are just outright lies. His case comes to court in about 10 days time and we are keeping our fingers crossed. To tell you the truth I dont know how it will all turn out. We have our good days and bad days. sometimes I try not to think of it because I get so cross at the injustice of it all and it drives me mad. Sometimes I fear my son will have a breakdown over it all and I am apprehensive of the outcome of the court hearing. On the other hand this will probably just be the start of it all. I am worried he may come away from this still with no contact. I wish I could confront my DIL and her family so tthey know the damage she has done but of course this is just what she wants and anyway I have no way to contacting her.
Thanks for listening.

This is an interesting article - he describes what my son has been going through this last year - it has an optimistic conclusion, in the author's personal experiences.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2112905/The-law-doesnt-damn-fathers.html

Good luck grannisu. I mentioned you keeping contact because sometimes, when the mother is so hostile to the father, she might tolerate speaking to you, which happened occasionally with my ex-DIL. She would spout such venom towards him, and try to play us off by saying I could see grandson, then withdraw my contact too. She did say I could pick him up after school for a few weeks, and I saw him for just 10 minutes once a week, but then she withdrew that. Still, each time I saw him that was a little bit of progress. My son is picking him up from school on Monday, instead of me, and I couldn't be happier about it. Take care x

Thanks all for your support will continue to read your responses. So good to know I am not alone. I cant tell you how much this helps.
Carol - have tried to keep on good terms with DIL by continuing to give her xmas gifts and birthday gifts etc but they remain unacknowleged and I dont have her address (neither does my son) so send things via her mums. She has changed her mobile number so many times no one in our family knows it. I hope once my son has the contact order we may get to see granson but at the moment I feel its more important that my son gets contact as he is his father after all. My son can only contact her via email and most of the time she ignores his requests for contact hence the need for a court order.
Thanks a lot to all.