to feel despair at the gay marriage vote

Vicars are there to look after people's souls. Not to provide a service for money. (I know expenses have to be met of course)

There is a difference but I don't think I can explain what I mean.

Good question ginny I can't understand why priests/vicars etc will be allowed to choose whether to marry a gay couple or not, when a couple cannot choose whether to allow a gay couple to sleep together under their roof.

Mind you the church is a sexist institution anyway.

Well, yes. I'm not at all sure about that one. I guess it was because they were running a business. And you're not allowed to discriminate in business.

j08 . So why were the b & b owners in the wrong ? They said it was because of their beliefs. What makes vicars a special case ?

Well at least that's one thing I can thank Mr Bean Milliband for.

And I think you'll find baptism is a sacrament. Apart from in the Baptist church.

Actually, baptisms are often refused. If the vicar feels the parents are not committed themselves. Or even if they are just not church attenders.

Feetlebaum, my MP also opposed the bill. Maybe he doesn't understand much about love and commitment. He left his first wife for someone else. They had a child and then he left her too. Think I might be sending him a little message too.

A vicar could not be made to do anything he felt was against his religious beliefs ginny. The government is not in charge of anyone's soul.

Yes, Mice have a good trip, and thanks for your clear and articulate explanations!

Goodness, I'm even more confused now ! So, if a vicar is also a registrar but as a vicar, can decide not to marry a gay couple, does that mean that he/she is above the law ? If so I wasn't aware that we are allowed to choose which laws to obey. Hmmm, I can think of a few I would like to break !

Thanks, Mice. Have a good trip!

The problem for the CoE is that because vicars etc also act as registrars, they have to marry anyone in the parish who meets the criteria. You don't have to be a Christian. Until yesterday, one of the couple had to be male & one female. Now they don't. So CoE and Church in Wales have been exempted from the act. Now does that make any sense?

Good for you feetlebaum I wonder how my MP Mr Milliband voted?

That's Mr Bean David not Red Ed !

feetle I'm glad to see that my MP voted in favour - just out of interest what do you think of Gordon Brown who abstained - is he a bigot?

I have emailed my MP, who voted against, and told him it was the action of a bigot, and that I had thought better of him.

Have a great time MiceElf

And I'm away for a week. About to leave. So I shall leave the Ecclesiastics to Lilygran or someone.....

I think you had better ask your friend's daughter, Whenim. I couldn't possibly speak for other people.

You said about the baptism thing. Not me! I was only answering.

all getting to flippin' confusing

I'm off to me scrambled eggs. [sigh]

Why would gay parents have their child baptised into the warm embrace of the church, when they get the cold shoulder for wanting to be married? So many contradictions for me

I don't think the law could exert authority over a church minister's spiritual leanings.

Why should a vicar refuse to baptize a child because of the sexuality of a parent?

Semantics again! The service is offered to God, but the sacraments - of which Baptism is one - are conducted in church for those who are members of that church. A baptism, or a funeral (which is a ceremony not a sacrament) would never be refused by any church tradition that I can think of.

Now I'm puzzled MiceElf. If the church only offers service to God, does that mean that any priest or vicar can exclude certain ceremonies like baptisms and funerals, if requested by gay couples? I'm thinking of a friend's lesbian daughter and her civil partner, who have lovely twin daughters (conceived by IVF) who have recently been baptised.

Could a refusal be tested in court, or would gay couples do what lots of hetero couples have done for decades - find another church?