to feel despair at the gay marriage vote

JO7 you are absolutely right.

petallus She is j08 and she is absolutely mistaken.

Why does a group of like-minded people have to be denigrated as 'a clique'?

But there has been some mockery Absent, if not by you.
This thread has gone round and round in circles with just a few views being said over and over again . think it's time to beg to differ!

It's always the same people and they always take the same tone. Been the same since GN started.

Yes. Marie's has been brave.

Yes, it is always the same few people and it is always the same tone.

It is not just to do with being like-minded, it is the way that like-mindedness is expressed. Mocking the 'target' person, jokes between themselves at her expense, speaking on behalf of each other, and so on, all add to the impression of bullying.

This may very well not be the intention. I'm sure belonging to a group of friends gives a nice warm feeling.

It's not really particularly brave to speak out when one knows one has the support of one's group. As jO8 says, the brave one in all of this has been Marie who was standing alone and unsupported against four or five people.

What's more, she's not the only one this has been happening to recently.

Maries, not Marie.

So we are back to vague, unpleasant allegations! I stopped posting on most threads because a certain group of people pounced on every post I made with hostile comments. It was said that things were nicer when I was away over Christmas and I was the cause of every argument. Funny, the arguments seemed to continue quite nicely without any input from me. Yet the jibes and little digs continue unabated but I treated them with the contempt they deserved.
I didn't report anybody and I didn't whinge and play the martyr.
And yes, it was comforting when friends I had made since joining supported me.
Well, I am off to pursue my 'sad, little life' with my loving family in New Zealand, and when I return I will be having friends to stay in my beautiful Alps, then I will be going to Egypt for a snorkeling holiday. I wish everybody had a life as sad as mine!

A few pages back I posted that I was so pleased to have an interesting conversation with nobody 'getting the hump'. So sad that it didn't continue that way.

I agree that Maries was brave to wade in as she did to a discussion that was going very well between all sorts of people. Well done Maries. (before anyone criticises that as sarcastic; it isn't).

Oh, sorry, she said she wasn't going to wade in. Oh well, never mind about the fact that it would have been wading in if I'd done it. (that bit is sarcastic).

Hey, people, we're allowed to mock stuff like that! Hey, people, we're allowed to 'mock' the idea that wading in is not wading in and saying a majority is not a majority, and other such nonsense by calmly saying that these are entertaining remarks after we've just guffawed at them. Gransnet, as someone at HQ said only recently, is "not sweet and fluffy"; it's a discussion forum. All the normal debating devices are allowed!

So I'm allowed to be amused by what I see as ridiculous arguments. Someone else not find it amusing is fine too, which is why, I suppose, the whining about cliques recurrs every time some members of gransnet demolish a ridiculous and illogical argument.

And then the emotional blackmail device gets used. "I'm hurt; I'm leaving."

Plus ça change.....

This is a huge thread and an interesting topic. Too lazy to read through it all though.

My observations about the theme of this thread are:

1) Posting something many will disagree with is good - it helps you understand the other point of view, shows some interesting arguments, and can be a lot of fun, while helping you home your own opinions.

2) In this case I do disagree, but it is like the debate on pro-choice v pro life: just because some folks do it, ie have an abortion or marry a same sex partner, it does not mean everyone else has to do it!!!!

3) I'm a firm believer in live and let live. Same sex people marrying each other does not hurt me personally in any way. But my preventing them from marrying would certainly hurt them.

I meant hone your opinions not home.

Please can you explain your number two point, joan. I'm not sure I understand. Is there any suggestion that "everyone" is going to go into same sex relationships? I suppose you mean that the fact that some people do doesn't mean everyone will. Have I got that correctly?

Personally i have no objection at all to anybody marrying in church. But then I'm an atheist so I wouldn't expect to.

However i am interested in trying to understand where those who do object are coming from.

I did get an insight from Maries' postings actually.

What I mean is, why object to something you never have to do yourself? Something that harms no-one and helps many.

All that carry on would only make sense if others were directly affected. They are not. Only the same sex couples are affected. Why be mean and deny them something heteros are not denied?

I think some people who are already in the institution of marriage, and think of it in a certain way, feel it's sacredness will be diminished if it is changed to include gay people.

A bit like some old fogey returning their OBE when somebody they feel unworthy gets one.

Thanks, joan. I did find that my thoughts straightened themselves out in the shower, and I realised you meant there would be no "slippery slope" effect for heteros.

Hehe! I like your old fogey with a gong analogy, petallus.

Well said petallus.

Speaking from behind the sofa...I think maries was new, just misjudged the tone of the debate and didn't read enough of the previous posts. Easily done.

I think you're probably right, lily. #youcancomeoutnow

I am an atheist, and yet I do not agree with heterosexual couples getting married in Church unless they are practising Christians. Out of respect- even though I disagree with them. Why spend the most important day of your life telling 'lies' and saying 'yes' to things you do not believe in at all.

Same for being a God Parent- why say you promise to help raise a child according to the Bible and with belief in the Trinity, etc - when you know full well you will do nothing of the sort?

Thank you, Bags

lily

jura, I don't think heteros who aren't practising christians should be married in christian churches either. Doesn't seem to stop them, and the vicars don't seem to mind, so why mind about homos?

I agree with you, by the way. Why have a religious ceremony unless you are religious?