to feel despair at the gay marriage vote

Exactly MiceElf So what is the problem with that?

No problem at all. I could understand someone being upset if they, or any church they were a member of, had a course of action imposed on it which they felt to be contrary to what they believe to right. But that isn't happening.

Marthanne - I am also surprised by your post. Do you not believe in including everybody in your love? I thought that was the Christian message?

I have some good Christian friends and I am so glad that they are not narrow-minded and bigoted.

Just a thought, If churches or singular church officials can decide according to their beliefs. How come a couple who did not want two gay men staying at their B & B were dragged through court and had to pay compensation ? Personally I don't care what a persons sexual orintation is but it does seem like ' one law for one ' and a different one for others.

No one is 'dragged' through the court. We have a justice system in this country which delivers its verdict according to the law. The law is quite clear. If a service is offerered, in this case a B & B, then the providers of that service are not allowed to discriminate.

So, am I confused ? The church is offering a service but only some officials have to offer it ,therefore, some are allowed to discriminate. Or is this not actually a law just a guideline ? Genuine question.

They don't have to offer the service if they don't want to. That's how I see it.

The law will allow gay marriage. Which at the moment it doesn't'.

No church minister will be required to perform it against their wishes. The state doesn't' t have that much authority!

Excellent question ginny. I would like to know, too!

I have visions of all sorts of test cases being taken though our own courts and the EU human rights system, in order to put in the fine print for every scenario.

There could be questions about the royals - a gay couple might come to the throne and have children. We might get that republic sooner than we expected!

Personally, I find it fascinating. We are talking about a basic human need for love and companionship. The invention of marriage and issues of property and inheritance have already sullied this man-made construction. I'm happy not being married and can highly recommend it.

Can you imagine this kind of discrimination in any other walk of life because I cannot.

Imagine a policeman, doctor, nurse, teacher,lawyer...... (I could go on and on) deciding they did not want to offer their service to someone because of their sexuality ??????

The church, in the form of those people who worship there, offers its service to God. It isn't a service (in the sense referred to) to worshippers.

No one needs to attend church or any worship gathering. It is a choice which individuals make.

A B and B on the other hand, is just like a hotel or a spa or a pub or a hospital or a place of learning, offering its services to the public. It must be open to everyone and not discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, sexual orientation or anything else.

This law has been passed by parliament and tested and refined in the courts. It is the law of the land and if it is broken, then appropriate sanctions will be imposed.

Now I'm puzzled MiceElf. If the church only offers service to God, does that mean that any priest or vicar can exclude certain ceremonies like baptisms and funerals, if requested by gay couples? I'm thinking of a friend's lesbian daughter and her civil partner, who have lovely twin daughters (conceived by IVF) who have recently been baptised.

Could a refusal be tested in court, or would gay couples do what lots of hetero couples have done for decades - find another church?

Semantics again! The service is offered to God, but the sacraments - of which Baptism is one - are conducted in church for those who are members of that church. A baptism, or a funeral (which is a ceremony not a sacrament) would never be refused by any church tradition that I can think of.

Why should a vicar refuse to baptize a child because of the sexuality of a parent?

I don't think the law could exert authority over a church minister's spiritual leanings.

Why would gay parents have their child baptised into the warm embrace of the church, when they get the cold shoulder for wanting to be married? So many contradictions for me

You said about the baptism thing. Not me! I was only answering.

all getting to flippin' confusing

I'm off to me scrambled eggs. [sigh]

I think you had better ask your friend's daughter, Whenim. I couldn't possibly speak for other people.

And I'm away for a week. About to leave. So I shall leave the Ecclesiastics to Lilygran or someone.....

Have a great time MiceElf

I have emailed my MP, who voted against, and told him it was the action of a bigot, and that I had thought better of him.

feetle I'm glad to see that my MP voted in favour - just out of interest what do you think of Gordon Brown who abstained - is he a bigot?

Good for you feetlebaum I wonder how my MP Mr Milliband voted?

That's Mr Bean David not Red Ed !

The problem for the CoE is that because vicars etc also act as registrars, they have to marry anyone in the parish who meets the criteria. You don't have to be a Christian. Until yesterday, one of the couple had to be male & one female. Now they don't. So CoE and Church in Wales have been exempted from the act. Now does that make any sense?

Thanks, Mice. Have a good trip!