the level you should expect from a 4 year old boys behaviour

Then sounds like his parents' problem. If he respects you and behaves at school then he'll probably grow into a responsible adult. You've tried to talk to your daughter, she doesn't want to know. End of. It's her problem, she's made her bed and must lie in it. When he's a fair bit older you'll be able to influence him more. Try not to worry.

It is the parents problem. He does it because he can get away with it. I would imagine that the father working long hours and not having the time to do normal family things is at the heart of the problem. His behaviour gets him attention. Some children don't care how they get attention as long as they get it. They sound as if they could do with parenting classes, as a couple, but how you get them to do that is another matter.

Thank you for all your replies, i was so glad to read that my GS behaviour
towards my daughter is not normal, he is also very distructive and will break
anything thats breakable.

If your DDs eldest child behaves in the same manner this little boy is thinking his behaviour is acceptable isn't he ? Your DD probably went to a hotel as she was confronted by bad behaviour and did not want to acknowledge that there is a problem and she had been pulled up about it from her mother a person who she expect's to support her,which I know you are doing,if her DH is working so much and there is not much family time she is probably trying fit too much into her life and feels she has to let this little boy have his own way by way of giving in to his bad behaviour.

He sounds like a very sad and angry little boy. If he's OK in school, and with people outside the family maybe the family needs professional help?

I think before everyone rushes in to judge his parents, it might be worth considering if there is an underlying condition causing this little boy's behaviour problems. Would you be able to ask tactfully, OP, if your daughter has been able to establish if the school has any concerns? His behaviour may be better at school, but are there problems with understanding, attention span, hyperactive behaviour, for example? Your task, I think, is to try and get your daughter to open up to you, so that you can help her explore the issues. Not easy I know, but if she thinks that people think it is her fault then she will naturally be defensive.

mamie that question has been asked and answered. It's only the parents.

Why have some people asked if this child is an 'only child' the inference being the reason for his bad behaviour? I've known loads of only children who do not behave in this manner and I've known loads of children with siblings who do. There might be several reasons: the youngest child and Mum is holding him back as he might be her last baby, he might have something medically wrong with him and a visit to a specialist might be the answer. I'm thinking along the autisim spectrum here. He sounds like a very angry little boy and rather then ignore it find out the cause.

I asked that question because I wondered if he is the centre of attention, as some only children could be.

Funnily enough we know one young family where there are two boys, one five the other three, and the younger one is a little sweetie practically all of the time, whilst the older one is a right little you-know-what! (still very loveable though). I think a lot depends on personality.

Input from Dad is the most important thing in a boy's life. IMO

Well maybe Orca, but I haven't read anything that says that there has been a full discussion with the school about his learning and behavioural patterns. We know that he doesn't demonstrate the behaviour with his grandmother, but that doesn't mean that it is all down to the parenting, many children only express their frustrations with those closest to them.
I have worked with children with special needs all my life and I think it sounds as if there is more to find out here than just labelling him as a "monster" or blaming his parents.

But the older child's behaviour is apparently not much better so I doubt there is anything medically wrong.

A lack of consistency in the parents handling of this, like dad giving in to buy treats at the end of the day, despite the childs behaviour is asking for trouble.

At risk of sounding brutal, does dad not realise he needs to be consistent or is this some dysfunctional power game between parents and is he doing this to undermine mum. It does happen unfortunately.

This poor little lad seems to be crying out for someone to show him some boundaries and control. To be tough and help him to control his behaviour is far more caring than giving in to him. The rewards for helping him to do this should be lots of positive attention when he is being good. Not expensive toys.

There were many very good supernanny programs by Jo Frost with behaviour like this. She was exceptionally tough with some very demanding kids, but always very caring and got results.

www.supernanny.co.uk/

Merlotgran, there are lots of families where, sadly, more than one child suffers from the same condition.
I am simply saying that this may be about a child with some kind of special need or it may not, but it is wrong to judge the child or the parents when we don't have the full picture.
It would be far more helpful to support the OP in supporting her daughter.

He is being rewarded for his bad behaviour and that is what keeps the behaviour going.
Another way of looking at this is that young children often try to become the dominant one in the family. But if they do manage to do this, they end up very unhappy. They do not have the equipment to handle the role of alpha person. At this age they seem to need boundaries and then they can relax and fit in a the bottom of the pecking order. If the child does not attack his GM and if he does comply in school, then it is obviously a parent - child behaviour pattern. (and an issue in the adult relationship)
It must be very distressing for the poor mother with so little backup from her husband and the way to help maybe is to focus on supporting her sensitively, without a hint of criticism of children or husband. Not easy to do.

Let's not overthink this. Naughty for parents ( as is older sibling), good for granny, good for teachers. Duh!

JessM no sympathy for mother, brought it on herself!

Mamie daughter has made it clear by her own childish behaviour that she won't take advice or support.

what your saying here is so true, i have said to my daughter before the problem was the dad, which she agreed in a sence, and yes to show him some bounders. 2 years back he was like this, very angry very agressive,

a fried of my daughter who we went on holiday with last year, told me in confidentshe found it hard being around him, i kept that to myself ofcourse.

I know the father would go bananas, to the suggestion of anything wrong with the children, so its easier for him to spoil him, i get on all right with the dad
they just dont have any quality time together, no proper holidays.
my daughter has always been very supportive to me.

i phoned her and left a message on her phone to come back.
she phoned back and we had a nice chat we are spending Easter with my youngest daughter who has 4 children who are lovely, i love being with them

however my daughter is still saying hes not always like this,, but sadly he is
it happens everytime i see them which is about 4 times a year or more.

It happens every time you see him, four times or more a year? Sorry, I assumed you were having frequent contact with him, matter. Is that quite enough to be able to gauge his behaviour, when children change their behaviour on an almost weekly basis when they are under five? I see behaviour arise in my grandchildren that disappears or evolves within days, depending on so many factors, like how their peers behave, the context the behaviour arises in, responses of parents and teachers or what other new behaviour takes their interest, or they find to be effective.

I'm not decrying the need for some intervention with this little boy, but asking whether his behaviour is being viewed out of proportion to the problem. It's easy to expect problematic behaviour and then get it, especially in the same context and with the same people.

Honestly, I really wouldn't worry too much about this. I have grandsons of this age, and it's a kind of muscle flexing phase that they go through. I try to support my daughter, and tell her what a fantastic mum she is - I know how I would have reacted if my mother had criticised me! Just remember, he won't be four forever!

If the child can control his behaviour in certain situations (ie with his grandmother /in school) then it is unlikely that he is suffering from any 'condition' as that would manifest in all situations.

I suspect he has developed habitual behaviour with parent/s and it will take a concerted & united effort on their part to change it! I would work on a positive reward of time with parents earned in 10 minute blocks.

i.e if you come out of school and behave appropriately(describe what you want him to do) and play nicely at home etc that earns 10 mins in the park on Saturday with dad with a max of 1 hour. (or whatever he chooses from a couple of choices). Earned rewards cannot be lost. To support him he needs a visual chart of how he is progessing to his goal and lots of verbal praise and attention when he is behaving well. If he is rude etc parents need to ignore & not communicate with him at that time (really hard to do but essential!). Punishments can still be given e.g. removal of toys /games but not the time he has earned.

Great advice nanaej

orca that is more than a bit harsh. I remember my DIL who is a competent grown up was thrown by her DS suddenly turning from a relaxed baby into an aspiring tyrant during his third year. Some people just don't have the inner resources to draw on when this happens. I don't think I did when I was young. GS eventually turned corner when I was able to stay for 5 weeks and take some of the pressure off, and do some behaviour work with him. (And potty training, exhausting!) And my DIL has a firm and supportive husband who is very involved in kids and backs her up. Even a year later she would still give in and carry him sometimes - anyone less in need of being carried is hard to imagine.
I have seen another friend cope with a long-hours husband who thought she should do all disciplining and that he could just be one of the (slightly naughty) kids if he managed to turn up before bedtime. Not easy for a mum.

Have they and you tried encouraging him to behave well rather than punishing him for bad behaviour.

It seems to be that if both parents have busy jobs and possibly little time for the children that he may be behaving badly to try and get them to give him the time and attention a child of that age needs from his parents.

My DH travelled a lot on business when my children were small but he gave them his time and attention when he was home and we always had family holidays and went away as a family at weekends to visit friends and families. I have asked DC, as adults, whether DH's frequent absences bothered them and they said no, they couldn't remember a time when he didn't travel and that when he was home he was a lovely Daddy. Or as DD put it, tongue in cheek. It was nice Daddy and Scary Mummy because as the always present parent I was the one that dealt with all disciplinary and parental control issues.